Greatest Pro (poll)

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Greatest Pro

Richie McCaw
1
50%
Dan Carter
0
No votes
Brian O'Driscoll
0
No votes
Jonah Lomu
1
50%
Joost van der Westhuizen
0
No votes
Sergio Parisse
0
No votes
Tim Horan
0
No votes
Shane Williams
0
No votes
John Eales
0
No votes
Jonny Wilkinson
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 2

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rowan
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Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby rowan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:49 pm

This is a good list, though it's over 2 years old and probably needs updating with a few new inclusions, notably Beauden Barrett. I think it makes sense to restrict it to the pro era as well, because the game is so different now that comparing modern players to the pre-World Cup era is about as awkward as trying to compare the 1980s with the 1880s. I've put the top 10 into a poll as well, knowing how much you guys just love my polls :twisted:

THE 50 GREATEST PLAYERS OF THE PROFESSIONAL ERA

50. Martyn Williams (WAL)

Mr Consistency. Man of the Match time and again for club and country. A footballing openside, this popular and highly respected centurion went on three Lions tours.

49. Will Genia (AUS)

One of those players who, at his peak, could win a game single-handedly, either with his own sniping breaks or by putting others into space. A real pocket dynamo scrum-half.

48. Alun Wyn Jones (WAL)

Now with 100 Test caps to his name, the Ospreys second row has grown into an inspirational and talismanic figure and would feature in most people’s world team right now.

47. Julian Savea (NZ)

Yes, I know he’s only been playing international rugby for three years, but the impact he has made in that time demands inclusion, with 38 tries in 41 Tests. A modern-day Lomu.

46. Scott Quinnell (WAL)

After a short spell in league, returned to Union when the game went open. One of the most effective ball-carrying No 8s in the world, he was like a one-man pack for Wales at times.

45. Tana Umaga (NZ)

A great reader of the game, the Hurricanes centre was the focal point of the New Zealand back-line for years and a hugely successful skipper, winning 19 out of 21 games at the helm.

44. Gary Teichmann (SA)

This Rhodesian-born No 8 captained South Africa to a record 17 Test winning streak in the late 1990s, leading by example, before launching the Bok and Amber revolution at Newport.

43. Rob Howley (WAL)

Shone brightly despite spending much of his Test career behind a beaten Welsh pack. Confirmed status as a world class scrum-half with the Lions and won Wasps the Heineken Cup.

42. Will Greenwood (ENG)

A tall, stylish and astute centre who had a particular penchant for scoring tries against Wales. Two Lions tours, but his finest hour was lifting the World Cup with England in 2003.

41. Joe Rokocoko (NZ)

The Fijian-born wing boasts a remarkable strike rate, having scored 47 tries in 68 Tests. When you’ve got speed and strength, you’ve always got a chance and he had both in bucketloads.

40. Bakkies Botha (SA)

The second row enforcer in South Africa’s World Cup winning team of 2007, this was a man you didn’t mess around with. Rounded off his career with three European Cup wins with Toulon.

39. Carl Hayman (NZ)

We just hadn’t seen a tight-head prop like him before. At 6ft 4ins and 18st 13lbs, the Otago powerhouse was a man mountain in the All Blacks pack ahead of a lucrative move to Europe.

38. Juan-Martin Fernandez-Lobbe (ARG)

Look for the ball and the Pumas back rower is certain to be somewhere in the vicinity. He’s either scrabbling for it on the deck, plucking it out of the air, fielding it deep or carrying it on the charge.

37. Thierry Dusautoir (FRA)

Produced one of the individual performance of modern times when he made an eye-popping 38 tackles and scored a try in France’s 2007 World Cup win over New Zealand. World player of year in 2011.

36. Jean de Villiers (SA)

A hard-running centre who has also shown himself able to do all the pretty stuff. The king of the interception, he scored 27 Test tries and proved a fine leader of his country. On his way to Leicester.

35. Ma’a Nonu (NZ)


Known initially more for his braided hair and eyeliner, he added passing and kicking to his raw line-breaking power to become one of the great centres, capping his Test career with that superb World Cup final try.

34. Adam Jones (WAL)

His record speaks for itself. The scrum cornerstone of three Grand Slam winning teams and the Test tight-head on two Lions tours. A true legend of Welsh rugby who has also been one of the game’s great characters.

33. Conrad Smith (NZ)

Nicknamed The Snake because of his ability to slither through the smallest of gaps and strike with a sudden burst of speed. Brought fluidity to the All Blacks midfield with his intelligent passing and vision.

32. Scott Gibbs (WAL)


Responsible for one of the great moments in Welsh rugby history, with his Wembley try against England in 1999, and a seminal Lions image with his dumping of Os du Randt two years earlier. A wrecking ball centre.

31. Justin Marshall (NZ)

Some players talk the talk, some walk the walk. Justin Marshall could do both. Backed up his chirping by running the show for the All Blacks in an 81-cap Test career ahead of a high-profile spell with the Ospreys.

30. Percy Montgomery (SA)

Test days appeared to be over when he joined Newport in 2002, but the move actually re-ignited his international career and he went on to be the top points scorer at the 2007 World Cup, excelling at 15 as the ‘Boks took the trophy.

29. Doug Howlett (NZ)

A star sprinter as a schoolboy, once clocked a personal best of 10.94 seconds for 100 metres. Used his speed to great effect in his rugby career, scoring a record 49 tries for the All Blacks. A wing with a high work rate and strong defence.

28. Stephen Larkham (AUS)

A converted full-back, the elegant Larkham proved a worthy successor to Michael Lynagh as the Wallaby outside-half. Pulled the strings to great effect during Australia’s 1999 World Cup winning campaign.

27. Gethin Jenkins (WAL)

Has revolutionised the role of the loose-head prop. Like an extra back rower with his ability over the ball and his defensive work-rate. The medal haul for club and country says it all. Wales’ most capped player of all time.

26. Matt Giteau (AUS)


Blessed with enormous natural ability, has been able to turn his hand to scrum-half, fly-half and centre. Test career seemed over when he headed off to win three European Cups with Toulon but returned to sparkle at this autumn’s World Cup.

25. Jason Robinson (ENG)

Known as Billy Whizz, this former rugby league star proved a hugely successful convert to Union. A lethal runner from full-back or wing, he was a nightmare to mark in one-on-one situations. Had a knack of scoring memorable tries on the big stage.

24. George Smith (AUS)

The scourge of the Lions at the age of 20 and more than 100 caps to his name for the Wallabies before he was 30. An absolute pest and nuisance at the breakdown, made a living out of slowing down or stealing opposition ball. Still going strong with Wasps.

23. Richard Hill (ENG)

The ultimate players’ player. Did all the unseen, grafting work and just got on with his job in unassuming fashion, putting his body on the line. Able to excel right across the back row, he was a pivotal figure on two Lions trips and an England World Cup winner.

22. Christian Cullen (NZ)


Just about the most exciting player in the world game for a few years in the late 1990s. Nicknamed the Paekakariki Express, he had a remarkable strike rate, scoring 46 tries in just 58 Tests for New Zealand, with his elusive running and pace from full-back ripping sides apart.

21. Schalk Burger (SA)

One of the most physical flankers in the game, he was dubbed a “threshing machine” by former Springboks coach Nick Mallett. Came back from injury and life-threatening illness to enjoy an immense international swansong at the recent World Cup. A carrying king.

20. Lawrence Dallaglio (ENG)

Went from being a schoolboy chorister to one of the most formidable physical presences in the game of rugby. Had it all in his prime - pace, power, aggression, pride and a steely mind-set. A Lions series winner, a World Cup winner and a trophy magnet with Wasps.

19. John Smit (SA)

One of the great captains of the professional era. Led South Africa a record 83 times in 111 Tests, guiding them to victory at the 2007 World Cup, a series triumph over the Lions in 2009 and two Tri-Nations titles. A teak hard performer in his own right, mainly at hooker, but also at prop.

18. Fourie du Preez (SA)

Any aspiring scrum-half should watch this man in action. A master tactician, with a great kicking game, he was the lynchpin of the South African team that won the World Cup and defeated the Lions. Then came back from injury to excell once again at the 2015 global tournament, breaking Welsh hearts.

17. David Pocock (Australia)


A worthy successor to Richie McCaw as the most influential player in world rugby, either at 7 or 8. There is simply no-one better in the game over the ball. He is just perfectly built for the role and when he locks himself onto a tackled player, there is no moving him. A fascinating character off the field too.

16. Zinzan Brooke (NZ)

A dynamic ball carrier, this Kiwi No 8 also had better kicking and handling skills than some fly-halves. Heaped the ultimate indignity on England in the 1995 World Cup semi-final, landing an audacious drop goal from 40 metres after they had already been demolished by four-try Jonah Lomu.

15. Paul O’Connell (IRE)

Munster fans will tell you that Superman wears Paul O’Connell pyjamas! The Irish second row was certainly blessed with special rugby powers having been one of the world’s leading tight forwards for more than a decade. A three-times Lions who captained the tour of South Africa in 2009.

14. Victor Matfield (SA)

Dubbed the best centre in South Africa for his love of running with the ball in midfield, this ultra athletic second row has also been a supreme lineout technician. Man of the Match in the 2007 World Cup final, he came out of retirement to serve the Springboks once more after a three year break.

13. George Gregan (AUS)

A talkative figure on the field, was responsible for one of the great on-field jibes, taunting the All Blacks with the words “Four more years” during the dying moments of Australia’s 2003 World Cup semi-final victory. Born in Zambia, this complete scrum-half won a whopping 139 caps.

12. Bryan Habana (SA)

Anyone who races cheetahs in his spare time is likely to be reasonably rapid and the Jo’burg-born speedster has scorched his way to 64 Test tries - joint second with David Campese on the all-time list - including a record-equalling eight to help the ‘Boks win the 2007 World Cup. Further trophy triumphs followed with Toulon and he’s still a razor-sharp presence as he proved this autumn by drawing level with Jonah Lomu at the top of the pile with 15 career World Cup tries.

11. Martin Johnson (ENG)

A player who led by example and the kind of man you would always want alongside you in the trenches when the chips are down. Would never ask someone to do something he wouldn’t do himself. Holds the unique distinction of having captained the Lions on two tours, including the triumphant 1997 trip to South Africa, while he will always be remembered as the man presented with the 2003 World Cup, which England won in Sydney. As well as being an inspirational leader, the Leicester lock was also a formidable player in his own right. A rock like presence in the tight, whose rugby motto was if in doubt, go forward.

10. Jonny Wilkinson (ENG)

In some ways, you could argue Wilkinson has been the epitome of the professional era. He has set new standards in terms of dedication and an almost obsessive pursuit of perfection. He’s also been one of the great match winners of the era and one of the game’s greatest ever accumulators of points. In fact, only Dan Carter has scored more in Test rugby, with Wilkinson having garnered 1,246 during his 97 caps for England and the Lions. His finest hour, of course, came in 2003, when he slotted the drop goal that won the World Cup. The fact he landed it with his weaker right foot speaks volumes for his hours and hours of diligent practice. Bowed out on a high, earning two more trophies with Toulon.

9. John Eales (AUS)

Nicknamed “Nobody” because “Nobody’s perfect” and his record is certainly pretty close to perfection. One of a select band of players to have won two World Cups, skippering Australia to glory in Cardiff in 1999. Captained the Wallabies 55 times during his 86-cap Test career, establishing himself as one of the most respected figures in the game. He was also very much a one of a kind as a player. It’s hard to believe now, but he scored 173 points in international rugby. An agile, athletic second row lineout ace, he was also a top-class place-kicker, who landed 65 Test shots at goal. A real ambassador for the game and a great player.

8. Shane Williams (WAL)


Everyone remembers his side-stepping magic and wing wizardry, but it’s easy to forget just how hard Shane Williams worked in order to be able to hold his own physically on the international stage. Having burst onto the scene in exciting fashion, he spent two years in the Test wilderness amid concerns over his size. But having grabbed his chance at the 2003 World Cup, he worked diligently to complement his God-given ability by working on his physique, emerging as the greatest Welsh player of his generation. Named world player of the year in 2008, he ended up with 60 Test tries, leaving him fourth on the all-time list behind behind Daisuke Ohata, David Campese and Bryan Habana. He was The Great Entertainer.

7. Tim Horan (AUS)

After emerging as one of the young stars of the 1991 World Cup, Horan returned from a horrendous knee injury to be player of the tournament eight years later as he lifted the Webb Ellis trophy for a second time. Possessed pace, balance, great ball skills and courage, with his attacking prowess, formidable defence and play-making ability marking him out as one of the finest centres the game of rugby has ever seen. Scored 40 Test tries at a rate of one every other game.

6. Sergio Parisse (ITA)

The Argentinian-born No 8 has been a key figure for the Azzurri since making an eye-catching debut as an 18-year-old against New Zealand in 2002. Big and strong, he has the size to make holes in any defence, but also has hands to die for and the subtlety to execute passes out of the back of his hand as though he were a fly-half. Add to that an astute brain for the game and an absolute refusal to bend the knee and you have pretty much the complete rugby player.

5. Joost van der Westhuizen (SA)

One of the game’s great competitors on the field, the former Springboks scrum-half has carried that attitude into his off-field battles since hanging up his boots. You only have to watch the legendary Living With Lions video from the South African tour of 1997 to understand just how highly he was rated by the opposition and what a threat he was seen as.

4. Jonah Lomu (NZ)

The physical impact Lomu had on the 1995 World Cup was beyond the effect of any other player in the history of the game. He scored seven tries in 1995, including four in an unforgettable one-man demolition job of England in the semi. Lomu went one better in 1999 to finish with a record 15 tournament tries, before going on to show his dignity with his brave fight against debilitating kidney disease.

3. Brian O’Driscoll (IRE)

Provided some magical memories with his hat-trick against France in Paris in 2000 and his wonderful solo try for the Lions against Australia in Brisbane the following year which evokes memories of the ‘Waltzing O’Driscoll’ song that epitomised the 2001 tour. Holds the Six Nations record for most tries with 26 and was chosen Player of the Tournament in the 2006, 2007 and 2009, leading Ireland to one Grand Slam and three Triple Crowns. Europe’s finest.

2. Dan Carter (NZ)

A prolific goal-kicker, a wonderful silky runner and a masterful controller, he possesses the lot and has been a genuine match-winner at the highest level. The maestro made his Test debut against Wales in Hamilton in 2003, playing at inside centre and giving a sign of what was to come by scoring 20 points. It was also against Wales in 2010 that he kicked a penalty from halfway at the Millennium Stadium to overtake Jonny Wilkinson as the world’s top point scorer.

1. Richie McCaw (NZ)

Who else? You only have to look at the 49 names below Richie McCaw on this list to recognise what a legend the Kiwi flanker has proved over the last 15 years. His stats are quite remarkable. He earned a world-record 148 caps for the All Blacks, winning 131 of those games and captaining his country 111 times. Perhaps my favourite stat is he has played in 32 per cent of New Zealand’s Test match victories since 1903!


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-10467929
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?

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Lizard
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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby Lizard » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:13 am

I was planning a scathing take-down of the ridiculously high ranking of Shane “Turnover” Williams until I saw who the original publisher was.
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rowan
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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby rowan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:29 am

Always thought he was a little overrated myself, undeniably a great player though. But Northern Hemisphere players will inevitably be judged primarily on their performances in the 6 Nations rather than against the true Super Powers down under. There are a few exceptions, BOD & Wilko obviously, who have done well with the Lions or their own national team. We'll know more about Beaudy after next year's World Cup, but right now he seems headed for a top 10 spot if he stays healthy throughout his career. Endurance becomes a factor at the top end, with all of those guys being on top of their game for close to a decade or more.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?

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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby cashead » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:02 pm

The notion that Eales was only the 9th best since turning pro, and is behind O'Driscoll and Shane Williams is fucking farcical. Shit list, not worth the paper it'll be printed on, if one chooses to do so.

And yeah, as good as Parisse is, being rated above Eales again? Fucking fuck the fuck off.

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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby Puja » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:57 pm

cashead wrote:The notion that Eales was only the 9th best since turning pro, and is behind O'Driscoll and Shane Williams is fucking farcical. Shit list, not worth the paper it'll be printed on, if one chooses to do so.

And yeah, as good as Parisse is, being rated above Eales again? Fucking fuck the fuck off.


I actually don't rate Parisse that highly. He's a good player, but he's nowhere near as special as the commentators think and, more importantly, nowhere near as special as he thinks he is. I still remember the France vs Italy game a couple of seasons back where Italy were 2 points down in the last seconds, attacking the French 22, setting up for a drop-goal and Parisse decides he's going to call for the ball to take a 40m effort rather than take a few more phases and let the fly-half have a go from closer. Shanked, game over.

In fact, here it is:



I can get the frustration with being the best player in the team for your entire career, but I constantly see him trying to do everything himself, even when other people are in better positions or are just better at something.

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rowan
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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby rowan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:21 pm

Agreed, Zinny and Parisse should probably change places. As least Zinny landed his droppie !
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?

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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby Digby » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:28 pm

Out of some sense of morbid curiosity why are there so many players named who were as much amateur as professional, perhaps even more so? It'd seem on the face of it more sensible to name professional players on a list of best pros

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cashead
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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby cashead » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:40 am

I find it hard to accept someone as a proper professional player if they spent, like, 96 and 97 being paid, and then retired. Honestly, there should be a threshold like 75% of their career, or more.

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rowan
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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby rowan » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:52 pm

The pro era began before that. It was fully-fledged in SA and France by the early 80s, and also Japan and Italy, then hit New Zealand and Australia with the advent of the inaugural World Cup in 87. It was professional only in pockets, however; not across the board. But I think it's fair to say many, if not most, of the world's leading players were fulltimers by the end of that decade.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?

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Re: Greatest Pro (poll)

Postby rowan » Sun May 06, 2018 5:55 pm

I take it all back about this being a good list, having realized there are actually only 3 props included :shock: . Anyone who can only find room for 3 props in their top 50 is obviously not in tune with the gritty mechanics of rugby and more concerned with aesthetics and glamour.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?


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