Anti semitism

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Puja
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Puja » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:01 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:But if you follow that thinking then everyone must limit their criticism of Israel because some racists conflate Israel with "all Jewish people".

This is where we're losing each other. You are not barred from all criticism of Israel because a lot of racists use Israel as a dogwhistle or code to mean Jews. You should however be very very careful when making a criticism of Israel where it overlaps stereotypical anti-Jewish tropes about them controlling world events, buying or fomenting dissent in other countries, or using wealth and power as leverage. That's not to say you cannot criticise Israel in those areas, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that it is an accurate and factually based criticism, not something you heard on the internet which turns out to be an alt-right stalking-horse that you're boosting.

Puja

I appreciate what you're saying, that accurate criticism of Israel is fine.

But when you say you should be "very very careful" etc this to me translates as being a lot more careful than when dealing with any other country: you will lose your job faster by criticising Israel than other countries, as Long-Bailey discovered - imagine if the claim had been about Germany training the US police instead. Therefore criticism will necessarily be more limited because of the extra care taken, or in other words Israel will get better treatment than other countries.


Sadly, that is the world that we're in and you do need to be *more* careful when criticising Israel than other countries (about these particular areas, not for their general abuses in Palestine) because racists use these tropes for anti-Semitism and you don't want to be echoing them or accidentally repeating racist talking points. It does mean Israel gets better treatment and that sucks (especially because several Israeli leaders have shown no shame in abusing that fact by trying to conflate criticism with anti-Semitism).

Shockingly enough, the racists ruin everything for the rest of us. The bastards.

Puja
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Son of Mathonwy » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Eugene Wrayburn wrote:You think it's true of you. I see many of the traits of an anti-Semite.

Sorry, I'm not completely clear what you said there. Are you saying I have many traits of an antisemite?

Would you mind clarifying what you were saying? Thanks.

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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Son of Mathonwy » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 pm

Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:This is where we're losing each other. You are not barred from all criticism of Israel because a lot of racists use Israel as a dogwhistle or code to mean Jews. You should however be very very careful when making a criticism of Israel where it overlaps stereotypical anti-Jewish tropes about them controlling world events, buying or fomenting dissent in other countries, or using wealth and power as leverage. That's not to say you cannot criticise Israel in those areas, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that it is an accurate and factually based criticism, not something you heard on the internet which turns out to be an alt-right stalking-horse that you're boosting.

Puja

I appreciate what you're saying, that accurate criticism of Israel is fine.

But when you say you should be "very very careful" etc this to me translates as being a lot more careful than when dealing with any other country: you will lose your job faster by criticising Israel than other countries, as Long-Bailey discovered - imagine if the claim had been about Germany training the US police instead. Therefore criticism will necessarily be more limited because of the extra care taken, or in other words Israel will get better treatment than other countries.

Sadly, that is the world that we're in and you do need to be *more* careful when criticising Israel than other countries (about these particular areas, not for their general abuses in Palestine) because racists use these tropes for anti-Semitism and you don't want to be echoing them or accidentally repeating racist talking points. It does mean Israel gets better treatment and that sucks (especially because several Israeli leaders have shown no shame in abusing that fact by trying to conflate criticism with anti-Semitism).

Shockingly enough, the racists ruin everything for the rest of us. The bastards.

Puja

Fair enough. I come to a different conclusion though.

I guess I value equality and fairness more highly than (IMO rather nebulous) ideas about avoiding supporting tropes for antisemitism. For me, we should fight racist conspiracy theories, but not by ditching fairness - that's too high a price to pay. If we're not even-handed (ironically, by acting as though one of those tropes is true, that anti-Israel bias is the same as anti-Jewish bias ie that Israel = all Jews) that's a big problem. Lest we forget also, that being treated unequally is a driver of resentment and pushes people towards extremism.

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Puja
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Puja » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:30 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:I appreciate what you're saying, that accurate criticism of Israel is fine.

But when you say you should be "very very careful" etc this to me translates as being a lot more careful than when dealing with any other country: you will lose your job faster by criticising Israel than other countries, as Long-Bailey discovered - imagine if the claim had been about Germany training the US police instead. Therefore criticism will necessarily be more limited because of the extra care taken, or in other words Israel will get better treatment than other countries.

Sadly, that is the world that we're in and you do need to be *more* careful when criticising Israel than other countries (about these particular areas, not for their general abuses in Palestine) because racists use these tropes for anti-Semitism and you don't want to be echoing them or accidentally repeating racist talking points. It does mean Israel gets better treatment and that sucks (especially because several Israeli leaders have shown no shame in abusing that fact by trying to conflate criticism with anti-Semitism).

Shockingly enough, the racists ruin everything for the rest of us. The bastards.

Puja

Fair enough. I come to a different conclusion though.

I guess I value equality and fairness more highly than (IMO rather nebulous) ideas about avoiding supporting tropes for antisemitism. For me, we should fight racist conspiracy theories, but not by ditching fairness - that's too high a price to pay. If we're not even-handed (ironically, by acting as though one of those tropes is true, that anti-Israel bias is the same as anti-Jewish bias ie that Israel = all Jews) that's a big problem. Lest we forget also, that being treated unequally is a driver of resentment and pushes people towards extremism.


I disagree with the premise that being even-handed is the most important thing, but I can see where you're coming from. Good talk!

Puja
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Son of Mathonwy » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:01 pm

Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:Sadly, that is the world that we're in and you do need to be *more* careful when criticising Israel than other countries (about these particular areas, not for their general abuses in Palestine) because racists use these tropes for anti-Semitism and you don't want to be echoing them or accidentally repeating racist talking points. It does mean Israel gets better treatment and that sucks (especially because several Israeli leaders have shown no shame in abusing that fact by trying to conflate criticism with anti-Semitism).

Shockingly enough, the racists ruin everything for the rest of us. The bastards.

Puja

Fair enough. I come to a different conclusion though.

I guess I value equality and fairness more highly than (IMO rather nebulous) ideas about avoiding supporting tropes for antisemitism. For me, we should fight racist conspiracy theories, but not by ditching fairness - that's too high a price to pay. If we're not even-handed (ironically, by acting as though one of those tropes is true, that anti-Israel bias is the same as anti-Jewish bias ie that Israel = all Jews) that's a big problem. Lest we forget also, that being treated unequally is a driver of resentment and pushes people towards extremism.

I disagree with the premise that being even-handed is the most important thing, but I can see where you're coming from. Good talk!

Puja

Anytime. Cheers :)

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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Son of Mathonwy » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Eugene Wrayburn wrote:You think it's true of you. I see many of the traits of an anti-Semite.

Sorry, I'm not completely clear what you said there. Are you saying I have many traits of an antisemite?

Would you mind clarifying what you were saying? Thanks.

Okay, I'll take this to mean that you weren't implying that I have traits of an antisemite.

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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Digby » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:22 am

Finally a chance for the 3 quote function to shine, beyond not making threads hugely irritating to read on a phone

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Re: Anti semitism

Postby Digby » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:23 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:Sorry, I'm not completely clear what you said there. Are you saying I have many traits of an antisemite?

Would you mind clarifying what you were saying? Thanks.

Okay, I'll take this to mean that you weren't implying that I have traits of an antisemite.


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