Six Nations countdown

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Stom
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Stom » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:03 am

Mikey Brown wrote:Ford to me is our most consistently underrated player. But we have a lot of overrated ones to balance it out.


Under
Ford
Robshaw
Launch (by coaches)
Hartley (by us)

Over
George
Kruis
Itoje
Farrell
Youngs

Wait, I see a pattern,...

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Mellsblue
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Mellsblue » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:16 am

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:I'm assuming if the masses don't rate Ford it's the same masses as make barking mad political decisions


I mean, I can understand Sexton...but after him who is there? Russel can be good, but I wouldn't say he's much better than Ford, if at all. Ford's a far better defender, too. Leaving who in Europe? I don't understand, I'm afraid Eugene...

I’d have Russell above Ford over the last 18 months but on top form it’s close. For me, in Europe when all are on form:
1. Sexton


2nd: Russell and Ford












3rd: Farrell
4th: Biggar
5th: Anscombe (if he keeps going as he is then he will go up).

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Digby » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:34 am

No love for Lopez? I think he's a class act, but will perhaps be told I'm merely being contrary

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Stom
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Stom » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:36 am

Mellsblue wrote:
Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:I'm assuming if the masses don't rate Ford it's the same masses as make barking mad political decisions


I mean, I can understand Sexton...but after him who is there? Russel can be good, but I wouldn't say he's much better than Ford, if at all. Ford's a far better defender, too. Leaving who in Europe? I don't understand, I'm afraid Eugene...

I’d have Russell above Ford over the last 18 months but on top form it’s close. For me, in Europe when all are on form:
1. Sexton


2nd: Russell and Ford












3rd: Farrell
4th: Biggar
5th: Anscombe (if he keeps going as he is then he will go up).


Well, yeah. Indeed.

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Mellsblue
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Mellsblue » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:00 am

Digby wrote:No love for Lopez? I think he's a class act, but will perhaps be told I'm merely being contrary

Good point. Haven’t really seen much of him since the injury, so, in equally measure, I have forgotten about him and can’t really comment on if he’s back where he was.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby twitchy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:26 am

Article on if the saxons vs the wolfhounds fixture was still a thing who would play.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/picking- ... -saxons-xv

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby twitchy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:29 am

Also underhill out until march apparently. The england curse continues.

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Oakboy
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Oakboy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:34 am

twitchy wrote:Article on if the saxons vs the wolfhounds fixture was still a thing who would play.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/picking- ... -saxons-xv


I'd like to see Maunder and Smith at 9/10.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Scrumhead » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:55 am

Would have been interesting to see the equivalent Wolfhounds team.

Post World Cup, I’d be tempted to clear the decks in some positions (scrum half being a prime example) and the Saxons could be a good way of checking out 3 or 4 possibles in a fairly short space of time.

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Puja
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Puja » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:03 pm

twitchy wrote:Article on if the saxons vs the wolfhounds fixture was still a thing who would play.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/picking- ... -saxons-xv


If there were to be an England A game (and it were to be played against another second team, unlike the games against South Africa A who are clearly and obviously not a representative South Africa team and therefore mean Haley was free to poach), I'd say the priority would be tying down players. Williams and Marchant would need to start, with Redpath and Dingwall on the bench. Vellacott at s/h, Murley on the wing. Any other dual qualified players I've missed?

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Stom
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Stom » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:13 pm

Meh. For me, I'd be looking at getting the next lot playing. And who are they?

Hepburn
Singleton
Stuart
Hill
Isiekwe
Dombrandt
Evans
Mercer
Maunder
Smith
Ibitoye
Williams
Marchant
Thorley
Malins

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Puja
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Puja » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:18 pm

You'd've said Dingwall and Redpath are part of the next lot if the Scots don't poach them first.

You wouldn't say BCurry or Earl has a better claim to the 7 shirt than Evans?

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Scrumhead » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Yep and in that order (Ben Curry then Earl).

I’d have Lewis Ludlow and Lewis Ludlam ahead of Evans at the moment too, although with a run of fitness and game time, he is probably the better prospect.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Timbo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:17 pm

Maybe the Racing move will be the making of him, but if Ford had put in some of the performances that Russell has over the last couple of seasons he’d probably never play international rugby again.

You can pick out any number of games where Russell has been genuinely abysmal, but the first two games of last years 6N’s are probably the stand outs. He was so bad there were legitimate calls for Laidlaw to start at 10.

Just on the wider point of England vs Ireland...I think generally people have short memories in sport. Ireland have a fantastic team and do incredibly to develop as many quality test players as they do. Getting a result on Irish soil is just about the toughest ask in rugby at the moment. BUT 12 months ago England were a team that had lost 1 test in 2 1/2 years, back to back 6N’s, Sarries x2 HC winners,18/19 Eng players on the Lions tour etc. This conversation would have had a very different slant. I really can’t see that there’s much difference in terms of quality and talent between the two squads, but perception counts for a lot, and England are seen as vulnerable and Ireland invincible. One result and that could very easily flip around.

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Mellsblue
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Mellsblue » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:26 pm

Don’t we all wish we were back 12 months ago. I’m sure even Jones, as stubborn as he is, would do things a lot differently. As it is, those 12 months have a terrible win % and a fair few hosings. The AI’s were a step back in the right direction but showed plenty of flaws. Where everyone was 12/18 months ago is irrelevant.

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Oakboy
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Oakboy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:36 pm

Mellsblue wrote:Don’t we all wish we were back 12 months ago. I’m sure even Jones, as stubborn as he is, would do things a lot differently. As it is, those 12 months have a terrible win % and a fair few hosings. The AI’s were a step back in the right direction but showed plenty of flaws. Where everyone was 12/18 months ago is irrelevant.


If we are dreaming, I'd be tempted to ask where we'd be if Jones had been sacked after the last 6N.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Freddo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:48 pm

Anyone know when the England squad is announced for the 6N?

Scrumhead
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Scrumhead » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:11 pm

17th I think?

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby francoisfou » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:17 pm

Mellsblue wrote:
Digby wrote:No love for Lopez? I think he's a class act, but will perhaps be told I'm merely being contrary

Good point. Haven’t really seen much of him since the injury, so, in equally measure, I have forgotten about him and can’t really comment on if he’s back where he was.


Camille Lopez is in Clermont's starting XV against Northampton tomorrow night.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Timbo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:20 pm

Mellsblue wrote:Don’t we all wish we were back 12 months ago. I’m sure even Jones, as stubborn as he is, would do things a lot differently. As it is, those 12 months have a terrible win % and a fair few hosings. The AI’s were a step back in the right direction but showed plenty of flaws. Where everyone was 12/18 months ago is irrelevant.


It’s not hugely relevant to the game in a few weeks, no. Certainly form, fitness, injuries, tactical prep etc are more important pointers in the immediate term. But if the discussion is centred around the fundamental quality of this England team and the players/coaches within it, then what they have achieved in the recent past, both together and as individuals, is entirely relevant.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Mellsblue » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 pm

Timbo wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:Don’t we all wish we were back 12 months ago. I’m sure even Jones, as stubborn as he is, would do things a lot differently. As it is, those 12 months have a terrible win % and a fair few hosings. The AI’s were a step back in the right direction but showed plenty of flaws. Where everyone was 12/18 months ago is irrelevant.


It’s not hugely relevant to the game in a few weeks, no. Certainly form, fitness, injuries, tactical prep etc are more important pointers in the immediate term. But if the discussion is centred around the fundamental quality of this England team and the players/coaches within it, then what they have achieved in the recent past, both together and as individuals, is entirely relevant.

I’d agree. As said previously, other than halfbacks I don’t think there’s much difference in quality between the two sets of players.

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Puja
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Puja » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:37 pm

Interesting sidenote - Dave Sisi has discovered his Italian heritage (and also moved to lock) and is in the Italy squad for the 6N. Good on him - deserved a run of luck.

Although notable that he's another whose run of consistent injuries has ended after going abroad.

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morepork
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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby morepork » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:47 pm

Puja wrote:Interesting sidenote - Dave Sisi has discovered his Italian heritage (and also moved to lock) and is in the Italy squad for the 6N. Good on him - deserved a run of luck.

Although notable that he's another whose run of consistent injuries has ended after going abroad.

Puja



That should really shake up their record of 17 straight 6N losses.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby switchskier » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:48 pm

Stom wrote:
Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:The situation at Wasps, where he clearly isn’t happy, hasn’t helped and trialling at fullback was worth a go, if only because of lack of alternatives, but it should’ve ended after the SA tour.

As for Ire v Eng, then other than halfback, where Ire are quite a way ahead, I wouldn’t say there is much difference in quality. Assuming Jones selects Wilson, Underhill & Curry rather than Shields and Robshaw, Ire are more experienced at flanker but I wouldn’t say there’s a huge gap in quality. That said, factor in that halfback is a crucial area, Jones keeps picking limited players, the Irish coaching panel is more settled and better and their players tend not to be over played and therefore injured, and you’d fancy Ireland 8 times out of 10.

Jesus. I'm a big admirer of Underhill (long before you guys got on board) but back row I think we've got you absolutely cuffed with any one of our top 2 or 3: POM/SOB/CJ; Jordi/Leavy/Conan; Ruddock/vdF/andok I'm struggling for a 3rd quality number 8 but you get my drift.

And Stom, JJ was a fine player when last he was fit, but he hasn't been a leading centre in Europe for at least 3 years. And I'm not sure Ford has ever been considered in the top 4 or 5 fly halves in club rugby in Europe. Great matches from time to time but sustained seasons of excellence?


Can you really name 4 or 5 better 10s?


Ford is a talented player with great hands and vision. He's brave and got good technique in defence too. He should be one of the best players in the world but when I see him play he dominates too rarely.

So if I was starting a new club I'd personally choose to build a club around Sexton, Russell, Carberry, Farrell or Cipriani instead and that's without considering southern hemisphere players. Ford is in the conversation along with Patchell, Belleau and Biggar just a level below.

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Re: Six Nations countdown

Postby Freddo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Scrumhead wrote:17th I think?

Thanks. I'm hoping for a Cipriani recall...…. :D


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