6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Moderator: Puja

Digby
Posts: 12942
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:37 pm

Mellsblue wrote:
Stom wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .


Pretty sure Greenwood would have got into a world XXII.

He’d get in to mine.


He'd be in my XV of players I enjoyed watching back when he played, but actually better than the likes of Umaga and Mauger, that I'm not convinced about

User avatar
Stom
Posts: 3989
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:57 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Stom » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:04 pm

Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:
Stom wrote:
Pretty sure Greenwood would have got into a world XXII.

He’d get in to mine.


He'd be in my XV of players I enjoyed watching back when he played, but actually better than the likes of Umaga and Mauger, that I'm not convinced about


But that’s why these world xv discussions are pointless. He’d be in the top 3 12s if his age.

Banquo
Posts: 11972
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Banquo » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:07 pm

Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:
Stom wrote:
Pretty sure Greenwood would have got into a world XXII.

He’d get in to mine.


He'd be in my XV of players I enjoyed watching back when he played, but actually better than the likes of Umaga and Mauger, that I'm not convinced about

Better decision maker than Mauger and less error prone, wholly different player to Umaga, and depends how you want to play.

Banquo
Posts: 11972
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Banquo » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:10 pm

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:He’d get in to mine.


He'd be in my XV of players I enjoyed watching back when he played, but actually better than the likes of Umaga and Mauger, that I'm not convinced about


But that’s why these world xv discussions are pointless. He’d be in the top 3 12s if his age.

It wasn't really a world XV discussion. Besides, ruling out pointless discussions.................

Tom Moore
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Tom Moore » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 am

Banquo wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.


Carling was great until the 1990 5 Nations. Once we lost to the Scots and the game plan became more restricted he went inside himself and became very little more than a bosh 1 12 (which he admittedly wasn't bad at).

Greenwood was genuine world class, him and Guscott (although very different players) are the best English centres I've ever seen.

User avatar
Oakboy
Posts: 3801
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Oakboy » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:07 am

Tom Moore wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.


Carling was great until the 1990 5 Nations. Once we lost to the Scots and the game plan became more restricted he went inside himself and became very little more than a bosh 1 12 (which he admittedly wasn't bad at).

Greenwood was genuine world class, him and Guscott (although very different players) are the best English centres I've ever seen.



Agreed. It is still strange that in a period of, say, 35 years from 1985 onwards, we are all talking about a very few decent English ICs.

Banquo
Posts: 11972
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Banquo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:14 am

Tom Moore wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.


Carling was great until the 1990 5 Nations. Once we lost to the Scots and the game plan became more restricted he went inside himself and became very little more than a bosh 1 12 (which he admittedly wasn't bad at).

Greenwood was genuine world class, him and Guscott (although very different players) are the best English centres I've ever seen.

Pretty much, though I'd trace Carling's lack of development to the moment he was appointed captain.

twitchy
Posts: 2629
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:04 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby twitchy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:43 pm


User avatar
Stom
Posts: 3989
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:57 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Stom » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:19 pm

Oakboy wrote:
Tom Moore wrote:
Banquo wrote:Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.


Carling was great until the 1990 5 Nations. Once we lost to the Scots and the game plan became more restricted he went inside himself and became very little more than a bosh 1 12 (which he admittedly wasn't bad at).

Greenwood was genuine world class, him and Guscott (although very different players) are the best English centres I've ever seen.



Agreed. It is still strange that in a period of, say, 35 years from 1985 onwards, we are all talking about a very few decent English ICs.


What about other nations? I honestly can't think of a huge list. It's a tough gig. All of them are, tbf.

How many "decent" wings have we had? How many "decent" 9s? How many "decent" flankers or #8s or FBs.

User avatar
Oakboy
Posts: 3801
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Oakboy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:55 pm

Stom wrote:
Oakboy wrote:
Tom Moore wrote:
Carling was great until the 1990 5 Nations. Once we lost to the Scots and the game plan became more restricted he went inside himself and became very little more than a bosh 1 12 (which he admittedly wasn't bad at).

Greenwood was genuine world class, him and Guscott (although very different players) are the best English centres I've ever seen.



Agreed. It is still strange that in a period of, say, 35 years from 1985 onwards, we are all talking about a very few decent English ICs.


What about other nations? I honestly can't think of a huge list. It's a tough gig. All of them are, tbf.

How many "decent" wings have we had? How many "decent" 9s? How many "decent" flankers or #8s or FBs.


I think there are quite a few decent examples of all those other positions apart from 9 (if we are talking from, say, 1990 to the present day). 9 and 12 are the two that stand out, IMO. Our problems there strike me as worse than any of NZ, Australia, SA, France, Wales and Ireland.

Cameo
Posts: 1427
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Cameo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:39 am

I think, as usual, you lot are a bit down on your player base as your expectations are so high (although you go through phases of being massively up on individual players). Have Ireland or Wales really had many stand out 12s rather than just ones who are good internationals.

Digby
Posts: 12942
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Digby » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:21 am

Wales went a bit JJ over Hook and Henson, two quality players they never really got enough out of, and if we're going back to the 90s they'd also have Gibbs to add to the list. Ireland have had D'Arcy and that's about it

User avatar
Puja
Posts: 8388
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Puja » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:14 am

I would say Jamie Roberts was outstanding for a long while. Poorly used sometimes by Wales, but I remember the Lions tour where he was the perfect foil to O'Driscoll.

Puja
Backist Monk

Digby
Posts: 12942
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Digby » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:41 am

Totally forgot about Roberts. Not sure he was on the same level as the others, but perhaps the most physical (and yes his skills were better than Wales allowed him to show)

Mikey Brown
Posts: 7189
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Mikey Brown » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:06 am

Digby wrote:Totally forgot about Roberts. Not sure he was on the same level as the others, but perhaps the most physical (and yes his skills were better than Wales allowed him to show)


Dunno about that. He came to Quins with the hope of getting to show off his skills a bit more, and the less said about that the better. Absolute class in his prime as a pure gain-line 12 though.

Timbo
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:05 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Timbo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:10 pm

Yeah, not sure Roberts had too many ‘skills’ that Wales didn’t utilise. At his best he was an effective but limited ball carrier, but his real expertise was in defence, where he was an absolute beast.

User avatar
Oakboy
Posts: 3801
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Oakboy » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:50 pm

It's interesting to reflect on realising potential. Rugby is a difficult sport to be too dogmatic on that. Who was the best player relative to natural talent? JW or Johnno are right up there. Strangely, it is a factor in favour of Farrell. Relative to his skill-set, he's pretty effective, arguably.

At football the best player I ever saw (in terms of effectiveness and application relative to skill) was Kevin Keegan. Not for one second am I saying he was an 'all-time' great BUT his average level of performance over a period of time, RELATIVE to his skill-set, was absolutely outstanding.

In rugby, BOD was one of the best, together with Gareth Edwards. Over a career span, Richard Hill and Jason Leonard take some beating.

Doorzetbornandbred
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:03 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Doorzetbornandbred » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:34 am

Oakboy wrote:It's interesting to reflect on realising potential. Rugby is a difficult sport to be too dogmatic on that. Who was the best player relative to natural talent? JW or Johnno are right up there. Strangely, it is a factor in favour of Farrell. Relative to his skill-set, he's pretty effective, arguably.

At football the best player I ever saw (in terms of effectiveness and application relative to skill) was Kevin Keegan. Not for one second am I saying he was an 'all-time' great BUT his average level of performance over a period of time, RELATIVE to his skill-set, was absolutely outstanding.

In rugby, BOD was one of the best, together with Gareth Edwards. Over a career span, Richard Hill and Jason Leonard take some beating.


Richie McCaw
Conrad Smith
Paul O'Connell

There would be others but that's 3 off the top of my head

User avatar
Oakboy
Posts: 3801
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Oakboy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:39 am

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:
Oakboy wrote:It's interesting to reflect on realising potential. Rugby is a difficult sport to be too dogmatic on that. Who was the best player relative to natural talent? JW or Johnno are right up there. Strangely, it is a factor in favour of Farrell. Relative to his skill-set, he's pretty effective, arguably.

At football the best player I ever saw (in terms of effectiveness and application relative to skill) was Kevin Keegan. Not for one second am I saying he was an 'all-time' great BUT his average level of performance over a period of time, RELATIVE to his skill-set, was absolutely outstanding.

In rugby, BOD was one of the best, together with Gareth Edwards. Over a career span, Richard Hill and Jason Leonard take some beating.


Richie McCaw
Conrad Smith
Paul O'Connell

There would be others but that's 3 off the top of my head


Good call. I suppose a 10 year minimum spell at the top would be a reasonable guideline and those three certainly qualify.

Digby
Posts: 12942
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Digby » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:00 am

Although based on natural talent I recall Smith and McCaw being rapid once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away

User avatar
Stom
Posts: 3989
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:57 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Stom » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:20 pm

Digby wrote:Although based on natural talent I recall Smith and McCaw being rapid once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away


No real denying they made the most of it, though...

I'd say Mike Brown has eked the absolute max out of his talents.

Digby
Posts: 12942
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Digby » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:22 pm

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:Although based on natural talent I recall Smith and McCaw being rapid once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away


No real denying they made the most of it, though...



But they did they do that more than some others?

Will Greenwood had few of the athletic abilities Smith was gifted with and also turned himself into a centre of some renown

User avatar
morepork
Posts: 5463
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby morepork » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:29 pm

Speaking of natural abilities. Michael Jones (pre-ACL blowout) or McCaw?

Doorzetbornandbred
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:03 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby Doorzetbornandbred » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:06 pm

morepork wrote:Speaking of natural abilities. Michael Jones (pre-ACL blowout) or McCaw?


I would argue Jones and Kronfeld had more natural ability than McCaw, what McCaw had was an insane sense of reading a game and fitness levels that were off the scale for rugby players.

User avatar
morepork
Posts: 5463
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: 6 Nations Team of the Tournament

Postby morepork » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:09 pm

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:
morepork wrote:Speaking of natural abilities. Michael Jones (pre-ACL blowout) or McCaw?


I would argue Jones and Kronfeld had more natural ability than McCaw, what McCaw had was an insane sense of reading a game and fitness levels that were off the scale for rugby players.



That is true. Jones in his prime was a beast, fast, skillful, and hard. McCaw doesn't come close as an athlete, but is clearly mad with his fitness and very good at reading a game.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ALISUTHERLAND2, Google [Bot] and 27 guests