The close defeat to France as told in increments

Moderator: Puja

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm

Minute 43

France shorten their lineout and overthrow, Itoje grabs the loose ball and is tackled pretty much on the French try line.

I'm assuming about 500 ideas of what to do next came to Ben Youngs because we've got turnover ball on the attack literally on their line and we have a 12 second ruck before Marler picks up the ball just to flop to the ground. 12 seconds, FFS, although did anyone think to call Guinness?

As the rest of the minute passes by it occurs to me at times Ive been less than kind about Gatball, that practice of one out and flop to the floor until a defence loses the will to live and gives away a penalty is difficult to watch, but at least they do the very limited thing quickly and with some intent. We do nothing quickly but eventually the minute end, and I was beginning to doubt it would.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:35 pm

Minute 44

For details on the attack please see the previous minute. At some point we get a penalty for France being offside but we show no signs of wanting to play even with an advantage. There's some interest in wondering if the cover on one of the posts is going to come off, but that's it on the excitement front

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:38 pm

Minute 45

Eventually Nigel blows the whistle, probably just to have something happen. With no points on the scoreboard and the easiest 3 points on offer and almost the entire 2nd half to go we elect to take the scrum. And this against a team known to sink under scoreboard pressure.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:40 pm

Minute 46

England win the scrum, Ben Youngs is looking to pick up at the base, Dupont is looking to pick up Ben Youngs, Nigel is shouting at Dupont to get back

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:55 pm

Minute 47 -

Youngs gets the ball away to Ford, not the best pass but it's gathered and Ford goes to the line with Farrell and JJ outside.

Not quite sure what's happening in the French defence, it's either a bad read doubling up on Farrell and ignoring JJ or some idiot(Thomas) is going for the intercept. A lot of chat post the game about Edwards having an influence, more than anything that's results driven commentary and not especially linked to all the mistakes France are making, in this case my money is on Thomas being an idiot.

Thomas is saved because yet again England haven't quite linked as a team, either JJ just overruns the pass or Ford passes just behind JJ, but it's just enough to allow Vakatawa and Bouthier to make a double tackle on JJ which is enough to dislodge the ball, excellent scramble in the end from France, bar they weren't 5m back and Owens had been shouting at them to get back.

Given JJ nearly fell over the line with the ball vs an offside defence there's maybe a question about penalty try and yellow card, but it's just a penalty for England which seems fair enough to me.

England take another scrum, does anyone know why Underhill is so wide binding onto his prop?

Youngs picks up the ball at the base and feeds Farrell on an out to in line. We get the ball back, and then run a phase which takes us close to the posts and we get the ball back again

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:49 pm

Minute 48 -

We run a series of pick and go attacks, but very slowly. Very slowly. Eventually the ball is lost forward in contact or maybe ripped. Either way France put together a ruck that allows them to run an exit play

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 pm

Minute 49

Dupont makes the exit play, England win the lineout and bring the ball out to midfield. We've got a grouping of Curry, Underhill and JJ all running hard lines up the middle, no shift in the lines so not the most creative but add in Manu for JJ and it's a lot of power for a midfield defence to ponder over. Again though it's our 1st phase ball, we carry over the gainline and we get a 3-4 second ruck

Next up on the carry is LCD. Again we're over the advantage line, but again it's terribly slow, and actually with LCD trying to present squeezball and Itoje not able to clear out both possible counter ruckers we hold on long enough Nigel gives a penalty against us. Ewels is maybe a tad unlucky he as on the inside of Itoje coming up to protect our ball, loops around Itoje towards the side of the ruck the tackler will be and promptly ends up on the wrong side of the ruck to clear Poirot who's over the ball, frankly in the end Haskell would be embarrassed about the reduced role of ruck inspector he ends up with even if not by choice in this instance.

This is yet another instance of players trying to be helpful and it just not working for us in this match.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:41 pm

Minute 50 -

Ntamack kicks to touch, not a great kick, and not his first that's more about being sure to make touch than go for any great distance, though I guess you're 17 points up so why risk anything

France win the lineout but messily with the topdown going wide of Dupont, Dupont pops the ball off to Rattez and he's brought down well behind the gainline. Marler is really quick to get over the ball and rips it even as two French players clear him out. Sincks grabs the loose ball and gets it away to Lawes as he's dragged down, we're going backwards but back in possession. Lawes gets sat down, minute over.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:18 pm

Minute 51 -

Ball passed back to Farrell who kicks it. The ball is no longer in our half which I guess is useful, seems to be a kick designed to have the French back three have as much time as possible to ponder on what to do next. As it happens France don't exactly shine getting caught not far out from their 22 and in a god awful position to give away a penalty if any other teams are paying attention. France go keep the ball and exit downfield but not into touch where Furbank gathers.

England are now 50/50 if not slightly ahead in winning contact.

The minute ends with the ball being passed back to Farrell who again simply kicks into the French half, there no chance of the ball going out or it being contested. So our game at the moment is to give them the ball and wait for a mistake, classic play when trailing by nearly 20 points

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:27 pm

Minute 52

France gather the kick and kick back where Farrell is waiting, and Faz kicks back himself. This time Faz kicks to touch and berates the tough judge as to where the ball is deemed to have gone out.

A good lineout contest between Itoje and Ollivon, Ollivon just gets to the ball first with both sets of lifter having their arms straight up. Ball knocked down on the French side but under pressure it's messy and Dupont is looking to mop up. It's not a bad bounce for Dupont who sends the ball Ntamack's way and Ntamack makes a clearing kick of sorts out to Daly on out left wing, sadly for Ntamack Genge makes damn sure he's committed to the tackle before the kick is away, Genge might not quite have the pace to convince he's committed the tackle but he commits to it anyway and clatters the French 10, frankly it's about time, England have been soft all over the park, nice even.

After Daly gathers there's a ruck and Youngs is waiting if not ready to pick up the ball at the base

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:35 pm

Minute 53

I'd quite like to write Youngs spends the entire minute pondering whether to pick the ball up or perhaps what the meaning of existence really is, many would believe he spends a minute wondering whether to pick up the ball.

Ball back to LCD, he carries with intent and presents the ball, we get a 2 second ruck. Okay the ruck is in our half and we only intend to kick the ball away, but they can do it. Ford launches another excellent kick down the right again finding touch, this one less impressive given Ntamack is down receiving treatment from the Genge tackle, tbh it was a bit cheeky but I do wonder if Ntamack needs to be lying on the floor getting a sponge bath when he could be up doing a job for his team, I know what Edwards will think.

France win the lineout at the edge of their 22, try to maul and go nowhere

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:19 pm

Okay, the final push

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:29 pm

Minute 54

France put up an exit kick which May gathers. We've got forwards running back who take up a position behind May ready to support the next phase, and we've got forwards running back ahead of May notionally acting as blockers but not really doing anything. We've got nobody over the ball and whilst the chap who tackles May doesn't show the clearest release (again Nigel isn't fussed) he's on his own over the ball, by the time Underhill and Ewels try to shift him they can't and a turnover is forced. That's our phase 1 ball and we cough it up without even putting up a fight, fecking shite, embarrassing really.

Maro decides France turning the ball over in their half isn't enough of an advantage so flops off his feet playing the ball on their side. Penalty to France, fecking shite, embarrassing really.

France kick the penalty to touch, again not a massive punt from Ntamack going out just over our 10m line

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:47 pm

Minute 55

France win the lineout with Ollivon in the middle and the ball is tapped down to Cros peeling from the front of the lineout, Genge is unused as a lifter at the tail and simply knocks the French carrier back in contact, and Cros shovels the ball backwards out of contact. Ever since 50m or so, and perhaps with some of the French subs, we have won more collisions than whilst the result was being set up.

Things are not going well for France off this lineout. And then things go very right for France, Underhill can't quite get to Dupont as he gathers the ball being shovelled back by Cros, and Dupont sets off under some protection given the litany of French forwards ahead of him, Dupont breaks down the left and feeds Ollivon supporting on the inside and nobody can stop Ollivon going over for a try. Not the only time in this match England have been dominant in the moment and then the game has swung violently against them.

I don't know I especially blame anyone for the score. Maybe you'd criticise Youngs but he's got a lot of ground to his inside that Sinckler (the man on his inside) can't cover against Dupont, and once Youngs gets caught turned inward looking to protect that gap Dupont is past him on the outside. This try almost just broke that way for France, though sides playing well tend to get these moments, and it's what made Dupont my MoM

There were some afters following the try being scored, Nigel tells the players there was nothing in it, and if nothing happens again somebody might be in trouble. Probably he means any needless incidents off the ball, but he could mean having an incident and not making sure you lamp someone.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:27 pm

Minute 56

Ntamack makes the conversion.


England kick off left and deep. France gather and Dupont exits almost up to the French 10m line

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Minute 57

We win the lineout and Ford drops the ball off to JJ who runs at Ntamack. I suspect Shane Williams would have made ground running into Ntamack, he's a talent, but he's going to have more difficult games than we gave him. Over the gainline we go, and we get a quick ruck, Youngs passes to Ford who's jumping to claim the catch not run on to it. But actually what happens next is more down to Ford, Vakatawa runs up hard on Farrell and Ford passes to Farrell, the defender inside Vakatawa is a lock and the centre has run out of the line so ideally Ford would be running into the hole, it's not easy to see all the options and Ford has taken some good options today, this wasn't one of them. Between Farrell being easily held and Alldritt playing the ball in the ruck once Farrell does get to ground that breakdown lasts 7 seconds, which is a shit show. However, because Alldritt went in to slow the ball instead of wrapping around to the shortside Youngs spots Rattez on his own and he has May outside him, you'd think in 7 seconds somebody else could have worked across for France, but nobody can be bothered, another moment I suspect Edwards will have something to say about .

May approaches the 15 and chips ahead, the 15 just allows May to run when all he has to do is claim he's committed to the tackle, being a French fullback he might not legally be allowed to make a tackle, I forget how that rule works. Teddy Thomas is wandering across the pitch noting there's stuff happening, but he's in no rush to get across and take a look, something I suspect Edwards will have an opinion on. May gets to his chip and toes it on, now Thomas is interested but it's too late to respond and May has a try out of Alldritt trying to slow the ball.

So on a day where Ford has outshone Youngs it's Youngs who makes the right call that finally leads to a try in a move where Ford got it wrong.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:56 pm

Minute 58

Farrell knocks over the 2

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:57 pm

Minute 59

France kick off to the right where Curry runs forward to take just outside our 22. Youngs kicks clear, Bouthier runs back and is tackled around halfway by Sincks.

Bamba carries into our half with Kruis rather falling off a tackle, France get pushed back to halfway when Itoje tackles Le Roux behind the gainline, Dupont has had enough and stick the ball down our right touchline letting the scoreboard do the work, can we play from 75m out? Daly gathers and gives France a chance to play from 25m as he kicks the ball dead, really poor.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:59 pm

Minute 60

Nothing happens. Doing these minute by minutes the correlation between scrums being awarded and nothing happening is remarkable. Maybe it's only correlation and not causation, but there is a theme.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:05 pm

Minute 61

Nothing happens. In defence of Nigel he does stop the clock with 6 seconds left in the minute to stop the time wasting, though this is the 2nd minute of nothing happening.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:18 pm

Minute 62

The ball finally got into and comes out of the scrum, France are being pushed back at a fair old lick. Dupont doe brilliantly to pick up at the base and sit Youngs down with a hand off, Youngs should have to watch this clip over and over, Dupont also holds off Curry long enough with the same hand to hook a ball inside to Woki, I'm not convinced he hooked the ball backwards as such but he deserves a big benefit of the doubt for being willing to play. Woke runs forward and is tackled by Daly, Daly gets his head of the wrong side but it doesn't seem to cause a problem.

There is no width whatsoever to the French attack as they play into England's 22, and they're towards the flank so they'll face that problem of playing into the blitz, and they've no blindside options unless Dupont takes on 2-3 defenders. France ended up with 4 players supporting Woki over the ball and the 9 still having to go in for the ball, that's lazy ruck attendance from some players who might not be fit enough or who've switched off thinking it's in the bag.

Ball is sent out to the open side and Bamba solves the problem of not having enough French players on their feet by dropping the ball. Youngs tries to play the advantage by popping off a basketball pass to Sinckler to scorch past Woki down the touchline. Leaving aside a tightead on for 60+ minutes is unlikely to gas a young flanker fresh onto the pitch the pass is forwards and so undirected it goes straight into touch, Nigel shows charity and doesn't declare the advantage was over

England scrum and win a penalty

Peej
Posts: 1176
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Peej » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:28 pm

Digby wrote:Minute 55

France win the lineout with Ollivon in the middle and the ball is tapped down to Cros peeling from the front of the lineout, Genge is unused as a lifter at the tail and simply knocks the French carrier back in contact, and Cros shovels the ball backwards out of contact. Ever since 50m or so, and perhaps with some of the French subs, we have won more collisions than whilst the result was being set up.

Things are not going well for France off this lineout. And then things go very right for France, Underhill can't quite get to Dupont as he gathers the ball being shovelled back by Cros, and Dupont sets off under some protection given the litany of French forwards ahead of him, Dupont breaks down the left and feeds Ollivon supporting on the inside and nobody can stop Ollivon going over for a try. Not the only time in this match England have been dominant in the moment and then the game has swung violently against them.

I don't know I especially blame anyone for the score. Maybe you'd criticise Youngs but he's got a lot of ground to his inside that Sinckler (the man on his inside) can't cover against Dupont, and once Youngs gets caught turned inward looking to protect that gap Dupont is past him on the outside. This try almost just broke that way for France, though sides playing well tend to get these moments, and it's what made Dupont my MoM

There were some afters following the try being scored, Nigel tells the players there was nothing in it, and if nothing happens again somebody might be in trouble. Probably he means any needless incidents off the ball, but he could mean having an incident and not making sure you lamp someone.


Have to say, watching the replay it looked like a real cheap shot from LCD that he was luck to avoid more serious punishment for

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:34 pm

Peej wrote:
Have to say, watching the replay it looked like a real cheap shot from LCD that he was luck to avoid more serious punishment for


I didn't pick anything up either Sunday or watching it back beyond it's always a risk players slide for the ball. But the reaction was too something. Broadly I'd say good, if the game is going badly get stuck into them and let them know it's going to hurt, though as I've not clocked exactly what happened I don't know how much of a cheap shot it is and whether I think it's too far.

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:36 pm

Minute 63

An excellent touch finder from Faz. France were warned after the scrum for their afters, it's not clear if it's a 2nd final warning, or a final warning prior to a final warning.

England win the lineout, which France don't contest, England set the maul, France drive us backwards. I wonder which players England think are good at mauling in their pack?

Digby
Posts: 12962
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am

Re: The close defeat to France as told in increments

Postby Digby » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:42 pm

Minute 64

We're basically pottering about for the rest of the minute, Kruis, Genge and Ludlam all look an upgrade but perhaps it's the French starters going off. As the minute ends a Curry carry (how have I not been using the phrase Curry carry far more often?) gets two tacklers to the floor and both Poirot and Bamba sit as guards against a same way play, neither puts in the effort to work across or at least there's no communication between them. I suspect Edwards will have something to say about that.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests