Lions SA 2021

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Sandydragon
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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:40 am

English players are looking popular (not a surprise) but it might be worth considering how dominated the Lions squad will be with players who aren't based in England given potential availability for pre-tour training. The last 2 tours have seen English players playing catchup with those based in the Celtic nations, especially where the decision is a 50/50 one.

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Sandydragon
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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:41 am

Mellsblue wrote:Am I the only one who would have Williams at 15 over Hogg?

For some reason, lots of pundits pick Hogg at 15 in Lions teams. I have wondered if it was an attempt to show horn in a token Scot which would be insulting to everyone. I'd rate Williams far more as a full back in his all round game.

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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Puja » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:45 am

Sandydragon wrote:English players are looking popular (not a surprise) but it might be worth considering how dominated the Lions squad will be with players who aren't based in England given potential availability for pre-tour training. The last 2 tours have seen English players playing catchup with those based in the Celtic nations, especially where the decision is a 50/50 one.


This Lions tour will be an exceptional one for that, in that Mako, George, Itoje, BillyV, Farrell, and Daly will all be passing time in the Championship and will be available for whatever training the Lions want them for. Plus, Ford and Manu are exceedingly unlikely to be anywhere near the playoffs.

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Mikey Brown
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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Mikey Brown » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:23 pm

Sandydragon wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:Am I the only one who would have Williams at 15 over Hogg?

For some reason, lots of pundits pick Hogg at 15 in Lions teams. I have wondered if it was an attempt to show horn in a token Scot which would be insulting to everyone. I'd rate Williams far more as a full back in his all round game.


For some reason???

Williams is very good but surely it’s strange to find it this baffling that pundits have differing opinions on it. He’s not that good.

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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Donny osmond » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:43 pm

Mikey Brown wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:Am I the only one who would have Williams at 15 over Hogg?

For some reason, lots of pundits pick Hogg at 15 in Lions teams. I have wondered if it was an attempt to show horn in a token Scot which would be insulting to everyone. I'd rate Williams far more as a full back in his all round game.


For some reason???

Williams is very good but surely it’s strange to find it this baffling that pundits have differing opinions on it. He’s not that good.
Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

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switchskier
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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby switchskier » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:21 pm

Donny osmond wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:For some reason, lots of pundits pick Hogg at 15 in Lions teams. I have wondered if it was an attempt to show horn in a token Scot which would be insulting to everyone. I'd rate Williams far more as a full back in his all round game.


For some reason???

Williams is very good but surely it’s strange to find it this baffling that pundits have differing opinions on it. He’s not that good.
Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk


To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.

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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Stom » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:29 pm

switchskier wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
For some reason???

Williams is very good but surely it’s strange to find it this baffling that pundits have differing opinions on it. He’s not that good.
Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk


To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.


Never seen Williams shit the bed, though...

switchskier
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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby switchskier » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:37 pm

Stom wrote:
switchskier wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk


To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.


Never seen Williams shit the bed, though...


For a lions tour I'll take the higher ceiling player though. Williams might get a wing slot but probably is in the dirt trackers.

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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Stom » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:45 pm

switchskier wrote:
Stom wrote:
switchskier wrote:
To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.


Never seen Williams shit the bed, though...


For a lions tour I'll take the higher ceiling player though. Williams might get a wing slot but probably is in the dirt trackers.


It's actually a very good fight for the back 3 spots, especially considering we now have 3 or 4 actually good fullbacks to pick from, all bar one of which can play on the wing and do so regularly.

I know I'd go for May and Watson, with one other, or maybe all 3 of the English guys, but Gatland doesn't pick teams like we do...and he's just as likely to pick North, Cokasaniga, and Williams, being the biggest back 3 he could probably find.

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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Puja » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:51 pm

switchskier wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
For some reason???

Williams is very good but surely it’s strange to find it this baffling that pundits have differing opinions on it. He’s not that good.
Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk


To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.


I have to disagree with you. Hogg gets it on length of kicking and his stepping ability, but Williams has incredible positioning and rugby nous and his ability to be in the right place and do the right thing is insuperable. Add to that his ability under the high ball, tackling, ability to hit a line, and his general heart and grit and he's miles better than Hogg. If we're 4 points down, getting ground down, and need magic from nowhere, then probably Hogg. If we want the best full-back, then Williams.

It's a hell of a problem to have though, which is probably why Gatland will pick Daly to kick 60m goals and be shit everywhere else.

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Sandydragon
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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:11 pm

The key question is who will tour, I guarantee that come the first test there will be a surprise as someone steps up who we weren't expecting or injuries strike. Williams is the better all round player compared to Hogg, but I do think both will tour (injuries notwithstanding). And temperament is crucial in what will probably be a hard fought and close game.

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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Stom » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:18 pm

Sandydragon wrote:The key question is who will tour, I guarantee that come the first test there will be a surprise as someone steps up who we weren't expecting or injuries strike. Williams is the better all round player compared to Hogg, but I do think both will tour (injuries notwithstanding). And temperament is crucial in what will probably be a hard fought and close game.


The thing is...thanks to covid, there's not much chance for bolters to make their way into the team.

We're probably looking at picking from the current squads plus Webb.

Would be fantastic to have a Lions tour with both BillyV and Faletau fit and firing. Just one tour.

I think we have incredible depth and collectively we should just be too strong. I'd mainly pick units, unless there's an absolute stand out. Like lock, where Itoje and Ryan are both superb and deserve spots, or 12, where no-one is any good. So an all English front row, for instance. Backrow is a difficult one, as are the centres, the back 3 are a wonderful decision, FH is an interesting one...will Farrell be picked? He's definitely not the best, but coaches like him for some reason.

And will Finn Russell get a look in?

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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:40 pm

Stom wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:The key question is who will tour, I guarantee that come the first test there will be a surprise as someone steps up who we weren't expecting or injuries strike. Williams is the better all round player compared to Hogg, but I do think both will tour (injuries notwithstanding). And temperament is crucial in what will probably be a hard fought and close game.


The thing is...thanks to covid, there's not much chance for bolters to make their way into the team.

We're probably looking at picking from the current squads plus Webb.

Would be fantastic to have a Lions tour with both BillyV and Faletau fit and firing. Just one tour.

I think we have incredible depth and collectively we should just be too strong. I'd mainly pick units, unless there's an absolute stand out. Like lock, where Itoje and Ryan are both superb and deserve spots, or 12, where no-one is any good. So an all English front row, for instance. Backrow is a difficult one, as are the centres, the back 3 are a wonderful decision, FH is an interesting one...will Farrell be picked? He's definitely not the best, but coaches like him for some reason.

And will Finn Russell get a look in?


I'm less bothered by units, unless they are so stand out exceptional that its a no brainer. In the front row the English players are probably close to that, although the bench is a different affair. Itoje and Ryan at lock are the outstanding pairing. Backrow is a real scrap for places. Billy V is great at what he does when fit, but who do you play around him? It all depends on the game plan as the likes of Tipuric are also great players, but play a very different game. Watson is also well up there, with Navidi and Stander in contention as well. Faletau if fit and firing again is a world class player and hard to ignore. There are a number of combinations which are mouthwateringly good.

I'm also going to make a case for AWJ to make the squad. He probably won't make the test XV (but don't bet against him). However, the mid week team is crucial to getting momentum and morale going, who better than a player who has been on 3 previous Lions Tours, to captain the mid-week team?

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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Stom » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:45 pm

Sandydragon wrote:
Stom wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:The key question is who will tour, I guarantee that come the first test there will be a surprise as someone steps up who we weren't expecting or injuries strike. Williams is the better all round player compared to Hogg, but I do think both will tour (injuries notwithstanding). And temperament is crucial in what will probably be a hard fought and close game.


The thing is...thanks to covid, there's not much chance for bolters to make their way into the team.

We're probably looking at picking from the current squads plus Webb.

Would be fantastic to have a Lions tour with both BillyV and Faletau fit and firing. Just one tour.

I think we have incredible depth and collectively we should just be too strong. I'd mainly pick units, unless there's an absolute stand out. Like lock, where Itoje and Ryan are both superb and deserve spots, or 12, where no-one is any good. So an all English front row, for instance. Backrow is a difficult one, as are the centres, the back 3 are a wonderful decision, FH is an interesting one...will Farrell be picked? He's definitely not the best, but coaches like him for some reason.

And will Finn Russell get a look in?


I'm less bothered by units, unless they are so stand out exceptional that its a no brainer. In the front row the English players are probably close to that, although the bench is a different affair. Itoje and Ryan at lock are the outstanding pairing. Backrow is a real scrap for places. Billy V is great at what he does when fit, but who do you play around him? It all depends on the game plan as the likes of Tipuric are also great players, but play a very different game. Watson is also well up there, with Navidi and Stander in contention as well. Faletau if fit and firing again is a world class player and hard to ignore. There are a number of combinations which are mouthwateringly good.

I'm also going to make a case for AWJ to make the squad. He probably won't make the test XV (but don't bet against him). However, the mid week team is crucial to getting momentum and morale going, who better than a player who has been on 3 previous Lions Tours, to captain the mid-week team?


We've got a glut of flankers who can operate around Billy, so I think it's no problem. You just want players who can do the nitty gritty so he doesn't have to. Not that he can't, it's just a waste. With Itoje and Mako (and oddly Farrell, if you pick him), you don't need a turnover animal in there, I think. I'd be tempted by Underhill and Stander, as I said before. I think that would be a balanced, powerful backrow.

I would also be tempted by AWJ. We have a host of decent but not great locks behind Itoje and Ryan, imo. So it's much of a muchness who's picked there.

switchskier
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Re: RE: Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby switchskier » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:12 pm

Puja wrote:
switchskier wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:Exactly. He may even be the best FB around, but he's not so far ahead of Hogg, or others, that it's baffling?

Wasn't Hogg recently voted the best FB in the world, narrowly beating the NZ guy? Was that equally baffling?

[/touchy scots]

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk


To join in the touchy Scottish reaction, Williams just isn't better than Hogg. He probably has an edge in pure tackling ability and under the high ball (where he's excellent) but Hogg takes it on stepping ability, ability to hit the shoulder, hands, passing, vision, length and accuracy of kicking and outright pace. If it were a pre-1995 lions tour then I get it with Williams but for the modern game on hard South African ground I'm taking Hogg every day of the week. Both will tour.


I have to disagree with you. Hogg gets it on length of kicking and his stepping ability, but Williams has incredible positioning and rugby nous and his ability to be in the right place and do the right thing is insuperable. Add to that his ability under the high ball, tackling, ability to hit a line, and his general heart and grit and he's miles better than Hogg. If we're 4 points down, getting ground down, and need magic from nowhere, then probably Hogg. If we want the best full-back, then Williams.

It's a hell of a problem to have though, which is probably why Gatland will pick Daly to kick 60m goals and be shit everywhere else.

Puja


Agree to disagree. Williams is a fine player but I'll continue to argue with anyone that says he's miles better than Hogg. I just don't think that he can do some of the same things to create, including stepping in at first receiver. Intangibles like heart and grit are notoriously in the eye of the beholder. I've always thought of him as kind of chippy myself but that may be because he's welsh and a sarries player and often seen standing next to Biggar/Farrell.

You're right though, it will be Daly.

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Re: Lions SA 2021

Postby Digby » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:02 am

In order to reduce congestion in the fixture list I'm willing to see the jamboree cancelled, and in the interests of treating SA and their finances equally with NZ and Oz also cancel the forthcoming tours in Oz and NZ


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