Pro14 to become Pro18?

Moderator: OptimisticJock

User avatar
Sandydragon
Posts: 5702
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:13 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:00 pm

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:We'd(the UK ) would be better off with a 2 tier British League, promotion and relegation 2 up 2 down, keep the English Championship happy if the bottom finishing side in Div 2 is English then the Winning side in the Championship get promoted. Unless the rest of the UK went back to clubs it would be hard to get any of the other countries promoting and relegating.

Completely agree. I was always of the opinion that the English clubs would never go for it, but recent events might provide the jolt it needs to move forward.

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:22 pm

septic 9 wrote:NB, it not the Government which would decide (not directly anyway) as that would fall foul or WR - no govt interference allowed.



Re: no government interference. WR pay that lip service and take a narrow definition of interference when it suits them. Look at Fiji RU. Also, last time the Kings were threatened with the cut, the government “interfered”.

Anyway, I’m glad it’s not me who think the suns are wrong. Maybe the welsh or Italians are going to drop a team?

switchskier
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:10 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby switchskier » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:51 pm

Another day, another possible format. Allbeit this one comes from wakes I line which has a pretty poor forecasting record. Feels a bit harsh on the cheetahs and that implies a lot of travelling. Also see no way that it gets up and running for the 2020/21 season given the current pandemic.

Current South African franchises now set to be replaced by rivals as future of Guinness PRO14 takes yet another twist - reports

There has been constant speculation over what the league will look like in coming years

Wales' four regions could be tangling with some of the best players on the planet in an expanded Guinness PRO16 as early as next season.

Reports have surfaced in South Africa, the Cheetahs and Southern Kings could find themselves out in the wilderness with the nation's four Super Rugby franchises making the move to the PRO14.

It would see the Stormers, Bulls, Sharks and Lions join Wales' four regional sides plus their Irish, Italian and Scottish counterparts in a new-look Guinness PRO16.

Afrikaans newspaper Rapport added there would be no spots for the current South African sides in the PRO14 - the Cheetahs and Kings.

The report outlined that these changes could take effect from as early as the 2020-21 season and that the Cheetahs and Kings would only remain part of the tournament if it was expanded to 18 teams.

Cheetahs managing director Harold Verster told the newspaper he could not guarantee that his franchise would be still be in the PRO14 by 2022, while a spokesperson for SA Rugby declined to comment.

This season’s Super Rugby tournament has been halted by the coronavirus pandemic, with New Zealand holding a domestic competition and Australia following suit.

Some of Australian rugby’s key stakeholders have been vocal in their support of a trans-Tasman only competition in future years and want the South Africans and Argentine side Jaguares booted out of Super Rugby.

Other leading ex-players feel the tournament needs an overhaul to become more appealing to the fans.

The New Zealand Rugby Union has established a committee to examine the future of the tournament.

A move to the northern hemisphere and its similar time zones would make travelling easier for South African teams while they could benefit financially from more sponsorship and a greater television audience in Europe.

There are, however, television deals in place and it would also likely mean the disbanding of Sanzaar, the governing body which oversees proceedings for southern hemisphere rugby.

SA Rugby has contractual agreements with Sanzaar and its partners to field four teams in Super Rugby.

But the PRO14 tournament would get an enormous fillip if big-hitters the Stormers, who Wales and Lions star Jamie Roberts appeared for this year, Sharks, Bulls and Lions were to follow suit.

South African rugby has gone box office since the Springboks powered their way to a third Rugby World Cup win by dismantling England in the Yokohama final last autumn.

Springboks' World Cup winning skipper Siya Kolisi and world player of the year Pieter-Steph du Toit play for the Stormers.

Other World Cup final stars, like Makazole Mapimpi and Lukhanyo Am, appear for the Sharks

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:30 pm

Gutted.

Cheetahs betrayed if that comes to pass. They bought in to the tournament and brought something to it.

And before anyone says it, yes, they had no top level tourney to play in when they came in, but the same thing could be said of any other club in the league at the point they joined. What would happen if they decided to get rid of, say, Connacht? They wouldn’t have a lot of options and would feel slighted. The point at which they joined and decided to opt into the pro14 isn’t relevant.

Admittedly, what does count is money and the commercial viability of the league “product”. (How I hate to use that term when discussing rugby!). All I’ll say is that I really hope they can make space or find a format that works, even if it means 17 teams for a couple of years. (Maybe until London Scottish get their own ground!)

I’ve always seen the PRO12/14 as a innovative product with growing the game (and itself) at its heart, and I would say that the Cheetahs are as viable a team as most of the rest in that league - maybe even more so. They have a long history, large (by pro14 standards) fan base and infrastructure, and can generate some decent commercial interest. Compare them to, say, Connacht or some of the welsh and Italian teams who seem to me to be less commercially viable (Indeed ours don’t exactly make millions). Ditching a team like the cheetahs doesn’t really make sense from my perspective (which admittedly doesn’t come from a place with the figures and outline of shareholder demands in front of me). If someone must be ditched, or betrayed (!), I’d sooner pie off zebre or see if the welsh finally want to go to 3 teams for a bit.

Vat hom, Cheetahs!

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:51 am


Big D
Posts: 4096
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Big D » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:41 pm

General Zod wrote:A wee bit more fuel to the fire...

https://www.news24.com/sport/rugby/supe ... y-20200717


Would be great to see the PIs get some sort of team. That will also reduce the wear and tear on players are there will be less SR level intensity games. May even improve the NPC as a by product.

Still not convinced the SA sides in the ProXXL is a good idea. The geography of it means SA are a little isolated for "local" competition but they could run with 6 teams and have a decent 10 game week competition.

I don't think the Kings or the Cheetahs have significantly raised the level of the league and the thought of the Stormers or Bulls v Edinburgh or Glasgow 3rds doesn't really sound that great to me.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:26 pm

need to change the thread title. Pro17

Pro14 have issued a statement, its on their website. Can't remember if its been picked up on here, but Kings have gone bust. They are hoping to add a different SA team from among existing franchises so that SARU can stick to its commitment to provide 2 teams, and confirm talking to SARU about more teams - expansion.
No SA teams will play pro14 this calendar year, some cobbled competition in SA will double as pro14 fixtures I think, no idea how that will work out but they won't play a pro14 full fixture list this season.

Sounds like a shambles now and will get worse, league will lose its way (I know) as super rugby did.

Did I mention the new fixture list with loads of Monday games?

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:45 pm

I think the Monday games could work. I’d quite happily zone out to some random game after a Monday at work.

I wonder if they’ll do Cheetahs plus a SA Barbarians style team. A sort of best of the rest to showcase what we can expect when they all join in the following season.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:51 pm

General Zod wrote:I think the Monday games could work. I’d quite happily zone out to some random game after a Monday at work.

I wonder if they’ll do Cheetahs plus a SA Barbarians style team. A sort of best of the rest to showcase what we can expect when they all join in the following season.



unless
a) fans are allowed in and
b) you are a season ticket holder and
c) you are a season ticket holder who has shelled out to be included in a ticket ballot

then there isn't a snowball in hell's chance of rolling up to a random game. You might be b and c I suppose.

Moving on, if they try to stick with Mondays when we get crowds in, they will kill it as a spectator sport. Not going to get the 000s of STs sold for Monday night games.

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:39 am

septic 9 wrote:
General Zod wrote:I think the Monday games could work. I’d quite happily zone out to some random game after a Monday at work.

I wonder if they’ll do Cheetahs plus a SA Barbarians style team. A sort of best of the rest to showcase what we can expect when they all join in the following season.



unless
a) fans are allowed in and
b) you are a season ticket holder and
c) you are a season ticket holder who has shelled out to be included in a ticket ballot

then there isn't a snowball in hell's chance of rolling up to a random game. You might be b and c I suppose.

Moving on, if they try to stick with Mondays when we get crowds in, they will kill it as a spectator sport. Not going to get the 000s of STs sold for Monday night games.


I meant from my perspective as an armchair viewer! I don’t live within reasonable commuting distance of either pro team, so unless I’m nearby for a work/family visit, I don’t go.

Speaking of which, Glasgow should move the cameras to the “warrior” stand, as it would look better/ less tin pot on tv. Am probably being a bit harsh there (it looks more small-scale than tin pot), but to the channel-surfing viewer with a passing interest, that change would make it look like there was more going on.

Anyway, I digress. I think Mondays would be worth the experiment from an attendance point of view. It wouldn’t be every Monday - I’d imagine maybe two a season tops per team, and for teams like warriors who sell out, it would be a chance for new fans to secure a ticket if they can’t get to the other games.

Big D
Posts: 4096
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Big D » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:15 pm

septic 9 wrote:need to change the thread title. Pro17

Pro14 have issued a statement, its on their website. Can't remember if its been picked up on here, but Kings have gone bust. They are hoping to add a different SA team from among existing franchises so that SARU can stick to its commitment to provide 2 teams, and confirm talking to SARU about more teams - expansion.
No SA teams will play pro14 this calendar year, some cobbled competition in SA will double as pro14 fixtures I think, no idea how that will work out but they won't play a pro14 full fixture list this season.

Sounds like a shambles now and will get worse, league will lose its way (I know) as super rugby did.

Did I mention the new fixture list with loads of Monday games?


I don't mind Monday games. Lets be honest the government wont be letting many, if any, fans in soon. It maybe opens up the league to more TV viewers.

I am still of the opinion the SA teams shouldn't be involved.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:56 pm

Big D wrote:

I don't mind Monday games. Lets be honest the government wont be letting many, if any, fans in soon. It maybe opens up the league to more TV viewers.

I am still of the opinion the SA teams shouldn't be involved.


TBH I don't see a big problem when as you say there will few of any fans, and if it helps the league and Premier with more viewers and revenues, that's just fine. As long as it is only for these really exceptional times. Despite the idiocy posted about Monday being worth a try for attendances, it would kill them.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:02 pm

General Zod wrote:
septic 9 wrote:
General Zod wrote:I think the Monday games could work. I’d quite happily zone out to some random game after a Monday at work.

I wonder if they’ll do Cheetahs plus a SA Barbarians style team. A sort of best of the rest to showcase what we can expect when they all join in the following season.



unless
a) fans are allowed in and
b) you are a season ticket holder and
c) you are a season ticket holder who has shelled out to be included in a ticket ballot

then there isn't a snowball in hell's chance of rolling up to a random game. You might be b and c I suppose.

Moving on, if they try to stick with Mondays when we get crowds in, they will kill it as a spectator sport. Not going to get the 000s of STs sold for Monday night games.


I meant from my perspective as an armchair viewer! I don’t live within reasonable commuting distance of either pro team, so unless I’m nearby for a work/family visit, I don’t go.

Speaking of which, Glasgow should move the cameras to the “warrior” stand, as it would look better/ less tin pot on tv. Am probably being a bit harsh there (it looks more small-scale than tin pot), but to the channel-surfing viewer with a passing interest, that change would make it look like there was more going on.

Anyway, I digress. I think Mondays would be worth the experiment from an attendance point of view. It wouldn’t be every Monday - I’d imagine maybe two a season tops per team, and for teams like warriors who sell out, it would be a chance for new fans to secure a ticket if they can’t get to the other games.


Glasgow stopped selling out every game last season. Mon evenings takes out those who travel significant distances (and ST holders of both our pro teams have many of these among them). It stops younger kids with school next day. It takes the balance between ST and individual tickets closer. And if its cold miserable wet monday night after a wet weekend, folk won't roll up to buy their optional match ticket. The ST holder has already committed the money. it would take a TV deal of ginormous additional monies for this to make any sense. And they'd still lose live fans

Big D
Posts: 4096
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Big D » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:38 pm

septic 9 wrote:
Big D wrote:

I don't mind Monday games. Lets be honest the government wont be letting many, if any, fans in soon. It maybe opens up the league to more TV viewers.

I am still of the opinion the SA teams shouldn't be involved.


TBH I don't see a big problem when as you say there will few of any fans, and if it helps the league and Premier with more viewers and revenues, that's just fine. As long as it is only for these really exceptional times. Despite the idiocy posted about Monday being worth a try for attendances, it would kill them.


I would hope it is a short term measure. It is just for the 1st 8 weeks for now and there are a raft of internationals on Saturdays from October through to Christmas. It would be a little silly to have half the league fixtures on the same day as the internationals.

However, I would assume (bloody dangerous as it is) that the clubs have a fair idea where there season ticket holders come from. If they try this under "normal" circumstances then it better be well thought out.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:20 pm

Big D wrote:

However, I would assume (bloody dangerous as it is) that the clubs have a fair idea where there season ticket holders come from. If they try this under "normal" circumstances then it better be well thought out.


no need to assume, they know exactly where their STs come from. Travel is one issue, working patterns, kids, partners' working patterns all get more complex on a weekday than a weekend. And even those closer to the grounds often like to meet and retire to a pub, younger ones even to on out on the town. That package ain't a goer for most on a monday evening. many parents have junior ST with their own - won't be worth it for fewer games. So family stops, or parents go, arrange child minding , but kid is maybe lost to the rugby habit.
Its a daft idea, yet nowhere in the long statement does Mackay or anyone make it clear its a short term one-off. An league that has us with 2 Bok teams, and to wind you up going for 3 more, and seriously looked at teams from North America. Wouldn't trust them as far as a non-covid spit.
They look intent in repeating every mistake Super Rugby made, and adding a few more for good measure

francoisfou
Posts: 2684
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:01 pm
Location: Haute-Garonne

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby francoisfou » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:29 pm

How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?

User avatar
General Zod
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby General Zod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:32 pm

francoisfou wrote:How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?


I’d love to see them all in, but doing so at the expense of the Cheetahs would be a fucking disgrace. Haven’t seen anything official yet, but...



The Cheetahs signed up until 2023 and put their faith in PRO12 as was. Now I’m not daft enough to suggest morals and “rugby values” take precedence over a moderate increase in marketability over, say, the Lions, but booting out the cheetahs would be at best a mistake. PROrugby’s word would demonstrably not be its bond.

What ought to take precedence is the fact that the cheetahs signed up until 2023. They should sue for a shitload and put an injunction in in the meantime. To ditch the Cheetahs would make me nervous as a potential sponsor that any bargain I struck with PROrugby wouldn’t be worth the paper it was written on.

One of the other SARU teams should just suck it up and wait it out. Also, it might be portrayed as SARU selling out the cheetahs, but PROrugby’s hand is in this. Would not at all surprise me if PROrugby made sure that the SARU had to pretend to be the bad guys of it all as a condition of joining.

Time to go to court and not settle, Cheetahs*.


*if they did sign up until 2023. I’ll confess I haven’t seen the paperwork meself!

Cameo
Posts: 1584
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Cameo » Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:52 pm

I'm just still not convinced by this SA idea at all. I get that bigger markets and stronger teams are a relevant factor but there needs to be an overarching strategy.

It's a significant improvement to have all the SA teams rather than just two of the weaker ones but I will still struggle to explain the ProX to casual fans. Currently my answer is:

"It's a tournament between the Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Italian teams as well as two South African teams though the rest of their teams play in another league"

"Why?"

"We don't have anyone else to play and we don't want to leave Italy out and the South African teams might one day be good and have money"

"Isn't it a all a bit too complicated?"

"Nah, everyone plays home and away against certain teams and then home or away against some others and then Edinburgh and Glasgow play loads and then you add up the points and, depending on your points and which conference you're in, you go to a playoff or a semi final"

Big D
Posts: 4096
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Big D » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:31 am

francoisfou wrote:How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?


No Bueno.

There is no need. The focus on the league should be quality not quantity. Currently teams regularly play understrength teams and that will get worse with the introduction of more games. I am not sure Glasgow and Edinburgh have ever sent full strength sides to SA.

Super rugby has died a death for many reasons and I get that SA is in broadly the same time zone but that isn't a good enough reason.

I am sorry SA are somewhat isolated but that is tough.

Can anyone honestly say expansion from just the S, W + I teams has worked?

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:47 am

General Zod wrote:

The Cheetahs signed up until 2023 and put their faith in PRO12 as was. Now I’m not daft enough to suggest morals and “rugby values” take precedence over a moderate increase in marketability over, say, the Lions, but booting out the cheetahs would be at best a mistake. PROrugby’s word would demonstrably not be its bond.

What ought to take precedence is the fact that the cheetahs signed up until 2023. They should sue for a shitload and put an injunction in in the meantime. To ditch the Cheetahs would make me nervous as a potential sponsor that any bargain I struck with PROrugby wouldn’t be worth the paper it was written on.

One of the other SARU teams should just suck it up and wait it out. Also, it might be portrayed as SARU selling out the cheetahs, but PROrugby’s hand is in this. Would not at all surprise me if PROrugby made sure that the SARU had to pretend to be the bad guys of it all as a condition of joining.

Time to go to court and not settle, Cheetahs*.


*if they did sign up until 2023. I’ll confess I haven’t seen the paperwork meself!


Cheetahs signed up in the same way all the other teams did. SRU signed up to provide 2 teams, who happen to be the only 2 we have. SARU signed up to provide 2 teams, who happened to be franchises not required for souper rugby.
Its SARU's decision, in principle I agree with the direction you're taking.

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:51 am

francoisfou wrote:How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?


no thanks. We are going to make the same mistakes as souper rugby. Too complicated conferences (and maybe 3 instead of 2!), almost certain uneven fixtures (again), excess travel for players,

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:59 am

Big D wrote:
There is no need. The focus on the league should be quality not quantity. Currently teams regularly play understrength teams and that will get worse with the introduction of more games.


not sure it would be more games.
Whether 2 conf of 8 or 3 of 6 (yes ProXX are quite capable of that), I expect to see fewer games. This has been the direction of travel for some time as a means of reducing the overlap with international matches and number of games players are involved in (player welfare). While I approve of both those aims I do not agree that this is the best way of achieving it, far from it - not least because in reality it will result in a significant price rise for ST fans - core income. But also because away from the obvious fairness of playing every team home and away in a normal league, we will get even more seriously skewed fixture lists - probably not even playing every team, or not all your own conf home and away
It will be a mess, and I hope I'm very wrong.

User avatar
Mr Mwenda
Posts: 919
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:42 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Mr Mwenda » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:02 am

septic 9 wrote:
francoisfou wrote:How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?


no thanks. We are going to make the same mistakes as souper rugby. Too complicated conferences (and maybe 3 instead of 2!), almost certain uneven fixtures (again), excess travel for players,


And a shed load of unnecessary flying in the era of covid and climate change....

septic 9
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby septic 9 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:18 am

Mr Mwenda wrote:
septic 9 wrote:
francoisfou wrote:How would you fancy the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers making a new Pro18?


no thanks. We are going to make the same mistakes as souper rugby. Too complicated conferences (and maybe 3 instead of 2!), almost certain uneven fixtures (again), excess travel for players,


And a shed load of unnecessary flying in the era of covid and climate change....



I'd accept covid as a factor currently, but not as a reason to discount this. There are other and better reasons, and climate change is certainly another consideration

Big D
Posts: 4096
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Pro14 to become Pro18?

Postby Big D » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:02 pm

septic 9 wrote:
Big D wrote:
There is no need. The focus on the league should be quality not quantity. Currently teams regularly play understrength teams and that will get worse with the introduction of more games.


not sure it would be more games.
Whether 2 conf of 8 or 3 of 6 (yes ProXX are quite capable of that), I expect to see fewer games. This has been the direction of travel for some time as a means of reducing the overlap with international matches and number of games players are involved in (player welfare). While I approve of both those aims I do not agree that this is the best way of achieving it, far from it - not least because in reality it will result in a significant price rise for ST fans - core income. But also because away from the obvious fairness of playing every team home and away in a normal league, we will get even more seriously skewed fixture lists - probably not even playing every team, or not all your own conf home and away
It will be a mess, and I hope I'm very wrong.


I honestly can't see them reducing the games, especially in the current climate with all unions losing money.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests