1872 Cup Champions

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Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:18 pm

In many respects I am more concerned about Lang than Young. He has had ample opportunity to make himself a nailed on Quins starter out side of injuries and he has never really done it. If he wasn't Scottish qualified we would be bemoaning another average import. I hope I am wrong.

switchskier
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby switchskier » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:33 pm

Big D wrote:
switchskier wrote:So Glen Young and James Lang to Edinburgh. Relatively pleased about the latter as I think that we really need a centre with some ball handling skills to get the rock out wide.

I don't understand the Young signing as I don't think that he makes us better, just adds another average lock that will get minimal amounts of game time. You'd guess that Mckenzie is done, Ferreira isn't getting renewed and we're giving up on Carmichael's injury record.


Young makes the squad better than it was. Pretty much an ever present in the Quins 23, mostly starting and has shown up reasonably well in the loose when I have seen him. Possibly plays a little light weight for his size but he is developing.

Good on him too, left Jed when he was young then knocked about at Newcastle then Doncaster, back to Newcastle and then Quins. He has done the hard yards and reaping the rewards really. Slots straight in as 3rd choice lock with an eye on displacing one of Gilchrist and Toolis as the established pairing.



I think that he is a bit lightweight and he's in the quins 23 because the other options are very young or injured. In many ways it's a like for like swap with Davidson, but it doesn't feel like he's going to definitely displace a starter, which is what we should be aiming for if we want to improve, especially as Gilchrist appears to be aging rapidly.

Lang I have reservations about too, but feel that we're quite desperate.

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:37 pm

switchskier wrote:
Big D wrote:
switchskier wrote:So Glen Young and James Lang to Edinburgh. Relatively pleased about the latter as I think that we really need a centre with some ball handling skills to get the rock out wide.

I don't understand the Young signing as I don't think that he makes us better, just adds another average lock that will get minimal amounts of game time. You'd guess that Mckenzie is done, Ferreira isn't getting renewed and we're giving up on Carmichael's injury record.


Young makes the squad better than it was. Pretty much an ever present in the Quins 23, mostly starting and has shown up reasonably well in the loose when I have seen him. Possibly plays a little light weight for his size but he is developing.

Good on him too, left Jed when he was young then knocked about at Newcastle then Doncaster, back to Newcastle and then Quins. He has done the hard yards and reaping the rewards really. Slots straight in as 3rd choice lock with an eye on displacing one of Gilchrist and Toolis as the established pairing.



I think that he is a bit lightweight and he's in the quins 23 because the other options are very young or injured. In many ways it's a like for like swap with Davidson, but it doesn't feel like he's going to definitely displace a starter, which is what we should be aiming for if we want to improve, especially as Gilchrist appears to be aging rapidly.

Lang I have reservations about too, but feel that we're quite desperate.


The money isn't there to bring in someone to displace the international starters. To bring in that quality of second row you'd be talking a boat load of cash because despite there possibly being better second rows available they aren't dropping BT or GG for a random NSQ second row. It would need to be a high class operator for the SRU to sign off on that. Even then they possibly wouldn't because investment is needed elsewhere in the team.

septic 9
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby septic 9 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:24 pm

Big D wrote:
The money isn't there to bring in someone to displace the international starters. To bring in that quality of second row you'd be talking a boat load of cash because despite there possibly being better second rows available they aren't dropping BT or GG for a random NSQ second row. It would need to be a high class operator for the SRU to sign off on that. Even then they possibly wouldn't because investment is needed elsewhere in the team.


wouldn't disagree with that, but some context.
Young has nailed a slot at Quins (has actually been playing really well altho not likely to challenge Gray, Cummings, Skinner or Toolis any time soon for the national squad. But has nailed a starying slot and will be on decent money.
Locks are the highest paid position in England and pro14.
Davidson went to Gloucs for £130k pa. Not bad for a lock of limited experience who hadn't nailed a slot at 3 pro clubs and isn't capped.
I can't believe Edinburgh will be paying Young will be on more than Davidson is going to get at Glos.

Can only wonder if Young is that much better and worth that much more, or is another case of a player being pissed off by Cockerill

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:34 pm

septic 9 wrote:
Big D wrote:
The money isn't there to bring in someone to displace the international starters. To bring in that quality of second row you'd be talking a boat load of cash because despite there possibly being better second rows available they aren't dropping BT or GG for a random NSQ second row. It would need to be a high class operator for the SRU to sign off on that. Even then they possibly wouldn't because investment is needed elsewhere in the team.


wouldn't disagree with that, but some context.
Young has nailed a slot at Quins (has actually been playing really well altho not likely to challenge Gray, Cummings, Skinner or Toolis any time soon for the national squad. But has nailed a starying slot and will be on decent money.
Locks are the highest paid position in England and pro14.
Davidson went to Gloucs for £130k pa. Not bad for a lock of limited experience who hadn't nailed a slot at 3 pro clubs and isn't capped.
I can't believe Edinburgh will be paying Young will be on more than Davidson is going to get at Glos.

Can only wonder if Young is that much better and worth that much more, or is another case of a player being pissed off by Cockerill


I think we are sort of in agreement - 2021 really is a new dawn. :)

If the SRU are signing off on paying £130-£200k to a player that is making a good career for himself if not setting the heather on fire then to bring in an undisputed number 1 or 2 lock as Switch is wanting we'd be looking £300k+. And for the SRU to sign off on that he'd have "name value" or the masses would scream about it.

I think Young could challenge to move GG aside but time will tell.

Davidson is a strange one, he has never really settled anywhere. He did look to have found a home but I am not sure him leaving can be necessarily the fault of the coach that has given him (through no choice really) his best chance at starting. Unless you have info to suggest otherwise of course.

switchskier
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby switchskier » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:44 pm

Big D wrote:
switchskier wrote:
Big D wrote:
Young makes the squad better than it was. Pretty much an ever present in the Quins 23, mostly starting and has shown up reasonably well in the loose when I have seen him. Possibly plays a little light weight for his size but he is developing.

Good on him too, left Jed when he was young then knocked about at Newcastle then Doncaster, back to Newcastle and then Quins. He has done the hard yards and reaping the rewards really. Slots straight in as 3rd choice lock with an eye on displacing one of Gilchrist and Toolis as the established pairing.



I think that he is a bit lightweight and he's in the quins 23 because the other options are very young or injured. In many ways it's a like for like swap with Davidson, but it doesn't feel like he's going to definitely displace a starter, which is what we should be aiming for if we want to improve, especially as Gilchrist appears to be aging rapidly.

Lang I have reservations about too, but feel that we're quite desperate.


The money isn't there to bring in someone to displace the international starters. To bring in that quality of second row you'd be talking a boat load of cash because despite there possibly being better second rows available they aren't dropping BT or GG for a random NSQ second row. It would need to be a high class operator for the SRU to sign off on that. Even then they possibly wouldn't because investment is needed elsewhere in the team.


There's a wider debate about the quality of our international starter (who are looking increasingly stodgy and non-internstional to me) and our approach to team building. We've always had limited resources but the current approach seems to be to use them to bring in a wide range of deeply uninspiring, scottish qualified, players who play less than ten full games a season.

I'd far rather we looked to bring in a few quality pieces and give game time to young players to fill gaps rather than having them as a drag on the budget. We'll lose some games, but you don't need to win that many to make the playoffs at the end of the season, when you can aim to have your big guns for and firing. Has this season so far been anything other than a waste for Sykes/Darge/Muncaster/Boyle? We could easily not have signed Ferreira and Davidson, combined the wage packet into someone better and given Hodgson then Sykes more time.

And yes, Lang may also be a symptom on this trend.

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:16 pm

I flippantly said that Chamberlain was being mismanaged on another message board and someone picked me up on it. But when I looked at it, I think he is being mismanaged a bit. He is the back up 10 who has been in the matchday squad for every game bar 1 since he arrived.

His game splits have been:
4 min with the 1st choice side,
80mins outside Shiel and Frostwick behind an underpowered pack.
Unused sub x3.
9 minutes with the 1sts.
3 full games during the internationals including the toughest fixture on the calendar.
Unused sub x5.

So in 9 of the games he has suited up in he has had 13 minutes of game time. Throwing him in for full games in international windows behind a pack shorn of big hitters having not played for weeks is putting him on a hiding to nothing. Playing 9 minutes in 4 weeks knowing (and they did know) he will have to start at home to Ulster and then away to Leinster isn't exactly any sort of preparation.

Assuming he plays on Saturday as VdW may be with Scotland, he wont have played a single minute of rugby since the 9th of November*. If VdW does play, looking at the way Edinburgh use him Chamberlain may not play until the 12th of February. That will be 3 full months without a minute of rugby and he'll be thrown in against Dragons away.

Basically, we have the last Scotland U20 stand off, who is still a little rough but has talent, knowing if he benches that the odds are the coaches don't trust him enough to put him on.

*According to the Beeb so it may be wrong.

Mikey Brown
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Mikey Brown » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:21 pm

If those stats are correct I think you're right to question it. What does it do to your confidence if you finally get a couple of starts in a row while your number 1 is away, then go back to unused sub as soon as they return?

You might say he should have taken his chance if he's that good, but what a weird introduction to the team from Cockerill.

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:45 pm

Mikey Brown wrote:If those stats are correct I think you're right to question it. What does it do to your confidence if you finally get a couple of starts in a row while your number 1 is away, then go back to unused sub as soon as they return?

You might say he should have taken his chance if he's that good, but what a weird introduction to the team from Cockerill.


I think he is 1-3 in his starts.

The first behind a pack that had Hodgson and Haining in the second row with Shiel (himself undercooked) and Frostwick.

Then loses at home to Ulster and away at Leinster during the international window followed up by a win v Cardiff I think.

Since that win he hasn't played a single minute according to the beeb. I can't remember him getting on.

Cameo
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Cameo » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:00 pm

Yep, in some ways it is very lucky they didn't manage to sign Jono Lance. If they had, I don't think Chamberlain would have got any time.

septic 9
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby septic 9 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:19 pm

Cameo wrote:Yep, in some ways it is very lucky they didn't manage to sign Jono Lance. If they had, I don't think Chamberlain would have got any time.


no doubt he would have had even less - if that is possible. But in one sense as 3rd choice that would have been less of an issue, Not signing Lance meant Chamberlain was 2nd choice. Even if VDW had managed to play every min of every game, he was sadly always likely to be capped and away. Not managing a rookie with more game time (not shed loads, just sensible) when he could be needed to step up at any time due to absence, illness or injury is a dereliction of duty.

Not rushing rookies is to be commended, but sometimes needs must and that need, being as prepared as you can be, should drive decisions. Or not.
Welcome to the world of Richard Cockerill

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:42 pm

Cameo wrote:Yep, in some ways it is very lucky they didn't manage to sign Jono Lance. If they had, I don't think Chamberlain would have got any time.


Ach it isn't even that, and obviously auld covid has an impact. But giving a lad 9 minutes before starting against Cardiff, Leinster and Ulster isn't really ideal. They know VdW was getting married and likely capped.

And it is bordering negligence that he hasn't played a minute since November but will have to start in the 6N window.

If Edinburgh had been a high powered machine that was scoring for fun then I would maybe understand it. But they are the least effective attack in the league and averaging 15.5 points a game. Not all 10's fault of course but why not give the kid some minutes.

switchskier
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby switchskier » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:26 pm

Big D wrote:I flippantly said that Chamberlain was being mismanaged on another message board and someone picked me up on it. But when I looked at it, I think he is being mismanaged a bit. He is the back up 10 who has been in the matchday squad for every game bar 1 since he arrived.

His game splits have been:
4 min with the 1st choice side,
80mins outside Shiel and Frostwick behind an underpowered pack.
Unused sub x3.
9 minutes with the 1sts.
3 full games during the internationals including the toughest fixture on the calendar.
Unused sub x5.

So in 9 of the games he has suited up in he has had 13 minutes of game time. Throwing him in for full games in international windows behind a pack shorn of big hitters having not played for weeks is putting him on a hiding to nothing. Playing 9 minutes in 4 weeks knowing (and they did know) he will have to start at home to Ulster and then away to Leinster isn't exactly any sort of preparation.

Assuming he plays on Saturday as VdW may be with Scotland, he wont have played a single minute of rugby since the 9th of November*. If VdW does play, looking at the way Edinburgh use him Chamberlain may not play until the 12th of February. That will be 3 full months without a minute of rugby and he'll be thrown in against Dragons away.

Basically, we have the last Scotland U20 stand off, who is still a little rough but has talent, knowing if he benches that the odds are the coaches don't trust him enough to put him on.

*According to the Beeb so it may be wrong.


Thanks for doing the research. You can see how confirmation bias is possible. The young lad plays only in difficult situations, alongside other inexperienced players, and when he struggles it confirms in the eyes of the coaches that he isn't ready.

VdW signed up for next year felt a bit inevitable. I wonder if they'll try again to bring in another experienced head in the off-season. It would be a mistake but I wouldn't be surprised.

Croft_No.5
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Croft_No.5 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:53 pm

Edinburgh Rugby team to play Zebre at the Stadio Sergio Lanfranchi
Guinness PRO14, Saturday 23 January (kick-off 1pm GMT)


15. Blair Kinghorn (95)

14. Jack Blain (7)
13. Mark Bennett (47)
12. Chris Dean (102)
11. Eroni Sau (16)

10. Jaco van der Walt (66)
9. Henry Pyrgos CO-CAPTAIN (43)

1. Pierre Schoeman (55)
2. David Cherry (30)
3. WP Nel (150)
4. Jamie Hodgson (15)
5. Grant Gilchrist CO-CAPTAIN (154)
6. Luke Crosbie (47)
7. Hamish Watson (117)
8. Viliame Mata (80)

Substitutes:
16. Mike Willemse (30)
17. Sam Grahamslaw (3)
18. Simon Berghan (88)
19. Nick Haining (17)
20. Magnus Bradbury (88)
21. Charlie Shiel (25)
22. Nathan Chamberlain (6)
23. George Taylor (27)

Big D
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby Big D » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Great to see Taylor back.

switchskier
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Re: 1872 Cup Champions

Postby switchskier » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:37 pm

To continue a theme, this is exactly the sort of game that it would be great to see either Shiel or Chamberlain get a decent run out in, before they're thrown into it when the 6N is on. However they'll get single figure minutes at the end because, even if our pack does enough to win the game, this half backs mean that it'll never be a comfortable lead.

Also, Haining covering lock? Can they all be injured again?


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