Hooker

Moderator: OptimisticJock

stevedog1980
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:14 pm

Hooker

Postby stevedog1980 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:23 pm

Going into the 6 nations, Turner was a clear 3rd choice and Cherry an anyone will do sort of 4th choice. Both have performed really well in the 6 nations with Cherry in particular really showing what he has to offer. Turner had one game off the boil when the whole lineout fell apart but we have seen that happen with Brown and McInally plenty of times.

Going into the tournament it was a clear

1. Brown
2. McInally
3. Turner
4. Cherry

Following the tournament, I'm not convinced that order is still the case. Brown has been a penalty machine, McInally has had major issues throwing in for multiple games. Are Brown and McInally going to walk back into the team?

I haven't seen much club rugby of late, has Brown been any good since coming back for Glasgow?

What are other peoples thoughts, what should the pecking order be?

Big D
Posts: 4506
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Big D » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:00 pm

Brown and Rambo always have been a coin toss. Brown was ahead this time prior to injuries.

Turner is potentially ahead of both. Cherry still 4th choice and hopefully Ashman gets more gametime at Sale.

whatisthejava
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby whatisthejava » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:50 pm

Really hard to know

Brown is like an extra flanker but his brain dead penalty cost us victory at Twikenham 2 years ago
McInally is a good leader and can be exellent in the lineout but occasionally the lineout goes tits
Turner is the best in the loose and is a menace, but can give a way silly penalties at crucial times
Cherry is a decent player who does the basics very well

Think its horses for courses

switchskier
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:10 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby switchskier » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:32 pm

McInally would still be my choice if fit and on form. His lineout has become a strength from a weakness, he scrimmages well and I think his carrying adds something. Brown/Turner have different strengths, so it depends on the opposition for me. Cherry us solid and won't ever let us down but I don't see him as an explosive athlete as the others.

As Brown, McInally and Cherry are all hitting their 30s we could use some youngsters stepping up at the pro teams though. Hopefully Wilemse being on his way helps at Edinburgh.

Cameo
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Cameo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:57 pm

Yeah, I'd agree. McInally on form is still first choice. Good thrower, appears to be a good scrimmaged, and good in the lose. He had lost some of his spark around the WC but can hopefully recover that.

There's an argument that Turner has moved ahead of Brown but Turner shares Brown's weaknesses (throwing and penalties), just more so. I'm not sure his extra explosiveness makes up for it.

Cherry is 4th choice but a good fourth choice

Mikey Brown
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Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Mikey Brown » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:28 pm

Cameo wrote:Yeah, I'd agree. McInally on form is still first choice. Good thrower, appears to be a good scrimmaged, and good in the lose. He had lost some of his spark around the WC but can hopefully recover that.

There's an argument that Turner has moved ahead of Brown but Turner shares Brown's weaknesses (throwing and penalties), just more so. I'm not sure his extra explosiveness makes up for it.

Cherry is 4th choice but a good fourth choice


This is pretty much where I sit with it. MacInally for me offers the best balance of basics and the ability to break the line and make big interventions in the loose.

Very happy with any of them on a good day, but Brown generally has me the most on edge about him doing something insane.

stevedog1980
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:14 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby stevedog1980 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:31 am

Brown is the one I am having the most bother placing in the pecking order these days.

Fit, on form and playing a disciplined game he's probably my first choice. But we rarely see him being able to stay on the right side of the referees and there are numerous examples of stupid penalties. Notably his recent penchant for running across opposition lines on the kick chase. Instantly we go from defending a long ball in play to defending a lineout on our own 22 for no gain. It was bad enough when he did it once but it seemed to be creeping in as a habit.

Putting him on the bench I don't think is a great idea. If you're looking to see out a game he's a penalty liability. If you're looking to chase a game he's an even bigger penalty liability.

For me, Brown either starts or is out of the squad and as others have noted Turner shares the same characteristics as Brown does.

I actually think Cherry is a fantastic bench option having performed the role superbly through the last campaign. He came on for his international debut against England and hit a series of lineout jumpers from cold without issue. Made some ridiculous number of tackles too for the time he was on. Point being, with no warm up for that he was able to step on and perform and he continued to do so when asked which is something that both McInally and Brown have struggled to do.

2. McInally / Turner / Brown
16. Cherry (If McInally starts for sure, if Turner or Brown starts it's tough to choose between Cherry & McInally)

Scottish Caley Fan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Scottish Caley Fan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:49 pm

I'm sure you peeps have seen the article in the Telegraph so maybe Ewan Ashman will have to come off this list (hopefully not) and Adam McBurney added, I'd presume he'd be next in line if the worst happened to EA (as the article mentioned) :(.

Who would be better for us, McBurney or Ashman?

Big D
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Big D » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:44 pm

Ashman by far IMO based on potential. I assume he knows how highly the SRU rate him given he was in the 6N squad.

Scottish Caley Fan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Scottish Caley Fan » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:04 am

Big D wrote:Ashman by far IMO based on potential. I assume he knows how highly the SRU rate him given he was in the 6N squad.


I hope so too because EJ will ruin him like he did with Zach Mercer and Ruaridh McConnachie.

septic 9
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Hooker

Postby septic 9 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:36 am

Scottish Caley Fan wrote:
Big D wrote:Ashman by far IMO based on potential. I assume he knows how highly the SRU rate him given he was in the 6N squad.


I hope so too because EJ will ruin him like he did with Zach Mercer and Ruaridh McConnachie.


McBurnie is a decent player, how good he can become I'm not sure. But Ashman is already up there but has a much higher ceiling - just needs to get out of Sale IMHO

Jones may have ruined Mercer and McConnachie - reality is Mercer was not SQ, and there really is huge competition for back row in the England team. Mercer and Simmonds are simply not what Jones wants, but it might be interesting to see what happens when Jones gets his jotters. McConnachie had been capped for England 7s for several years (and wasn't exactly a kid then) before going to Bath and getting a full XVs cap. SRU would have known he was SQ way before that and decided there was nothing urgent about a 24 year old playing for Hartbury - or the lad decided as he was in fact born in england that he is english.

whatisthejava
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby whatisthejava » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:49 pm

I have a real issue capping players to stop others gettng them, if you cap a guy he should have a fair expectation that he will get at least 3 - 5 chances to stake a claim

These one cap guys that are capped as a safety net incase they turn into super stars later are really unfair.

For me if you have less than 3 caps and its been 3 years you should be able to swop alleigance

Rugby managed with this for over 100 years without issue and if unions can treat players like commodities i dont see why players cant do the exact same. I would also state that at any point a player could take this to a higher court and force a change as it is effectivly preventing someone making money (as they are paid to be professionals)

Adder
Posts: 1749
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Adder » Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:15 pm

whatisthejava wrote:I have a real issue capping players to stop others gettng them, if you cap a guy he should have a fair expectation that he will get at least 3 - 5 chances to stake a claim

These one cap guys that are capped as a safety net incase they turn into super stars later are really unfair.

For me if you have less than 3 caps and its been 3 years you should be able to swop alleigance


Rugby managed with this for over 100 years without issue and if unions can treat players like commodities i dont see why players cant do the exact same. I would also state that at any point a player could take this to a higher court and force a change as it is effectivly preventing someone making money (as they are paid to be professionals)


I agree.

Cameo
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: Hooker

Postby Cameo » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:52 am

I disagree though can see the argument for it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about the qualification rules but find it not quite right when a person is clearly playing for their second or third choice. I don't know quite how feasible it is, but I would be tempted to let people pick who they want to play for with no restrictions but make them do it when they first sign a pro contract rather than waiting and seeing the options.

As for Ashman, that would be a real shame. I'm not too sure Eddie would cap him just to prevent us doing the same though. I think it's more he makes snap judgment a on players.

septic 9
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Hooker

Postby septic 9 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:29 am

Cameo wrote:I disagree though can see the argument for it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about the qualification rules but find it not quite right when a person is clearly playing for their second or third choice. I don't know quite how feasible it is, but I would be tempted to let people pick who they want to play for with no restrictions but make them do it when they first sign a pro contract rather than waiting and seeing the options.

As for Ashman, that would be a real shame. I'm not too sure Eddie would cap him just to prevent us doing the same though. I think it's more he makes snap judgment a on players.


there is actually quite a lot in common between Jones and Cockerill. Both are eager and willing rent a gobs, and both are intrinsically very conservative in game plan and selection. and both are more than happy to throw out a distraction. Jones' job has to be in danger, he is not and has not moved the England team on, so we have had shit about them being too focused on next years law changes and now floating the names of a couple of young players. 3 years is Fast Eddie's limit of use anywhere

septic 9
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

Re: Hooker

Postby septic 9 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:34 am

Adder wrote:
whatisthejava wrote:I have a real issue capping players to stop others gettng them, if you cap a guy he should have a fair expectation that he will get at least 3 - 5 chances to stake a claim

These one cap guys that are capped as a safety net incase they turn into super stars later are really unfair.

For me if you have less than 3 caps and its been 3 years you should be able to swop alleigance


Rugby managed with this for over 100 years without issue and if unions can treat players like commodities i dont see why players cant do the exact same. I would also state that at any point a player could take this to a higher court and force a change as it is effectively preventing someone making money (as they are paid to be professionals)


I agree.


I don't. It all ignores real issue, which is indeed availability of players to Fiji, Samoa etc etc etc. And that is down to a number of factors - some being no pro rugby at home, becoming naturalised into new home, being brought as kids (young teens sometimes) to anew country and counted as "native", and a huge overlap therefore conflict between club and country fixtures. Changing nationality doesn't change any of that - and anyway selection for a national team is by invitation, no court case would change anything even if it succeeded - cannot make a union select any player


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