Planet Rugby......

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Spiffy
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Planet Rugby......

Postby Spiffy » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:09 pm

........ picks Owen Farrell at 10 in their all-star team of last weekend's internationals, with the usual gushing talk-up. Wonder if anyone there was actually watching the game?

Digby
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Digby » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:36 pm

Was anyone any good? Sexton looked alright, was he the actual best performance?

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Puja
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Puja » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:37 pm

Digby wrote:Was anyone any good? Sexton looked alright, was he the actual best performance?


Ford?

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Scrumhead » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:13 pm

Even stranger comments on why: “His timing in possession sets him apart from many other 10s ... as he drew Italian defenders in before picking the right teammate to pass to”.

B*llocks he did ... he almost did the complete opposite. Played too deep and made obvious passes often to the wrong option.

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Puja
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Puja » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:18 pm

"The reviewer has the memory of a goldfish and can only remember the last try where Farrell made a nice delayed pass for Watson to score. Therefore, that is what he did all match."

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fivepointer
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby fivepointer » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:25 pm

I thought Farrell was piss poor.
But so often his performances are viewed entirely differently from almost every other player.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Scrumhead » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:57 pm

But, but, but ... “he’s the Iceman” and “he’s World Class”.

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Stom
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Stom » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:45 pm

Just did a "fag packet" calculation that since the start of 2017, Farrell has a kicking %age of 79%.

Average.

Ford has 85%.

Let's leave that sink in...

The Iceman is worse at kicking for goal than the bottler.

And that's AFTER his big bottling days.

Timbo
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Timbo » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:05 pm

Saw a stat the other day-possibly Russ Petty- that in 73 caps Farrell has given away more than 2 turnovers in a game only 3 times...I believe that a ‘turnover’ in this context constitutes a charged down kick, throwing an intercept, knock on, spillage in contact, holding on penalty, jackal pen etc.

Unfortunately all 3 of those have come in 2019.

Given the general sentiments towards Farrell on this forum I would definitely qualify as a Farrell apologist, but even I admit that his last 4 starts in the England 10 jersey have been utter poo.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Digby » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:14 pm

There are elements that qualify as ice-man play, but whether frozen hands are useful is open to question

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Stom
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Stom » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:46 am

Timbo wrote:Saw a stat the other day-possibly Russ Petty- that in 73 caps Farrell has given away more than 2 turnovers in a game only 3 times...I believe that a ‘turnover’ in this context constitutes a charged down kick, throwing an intercept, knock on, spillage in contact, holding on penalty, jackal pen etc.

Unfortunately all 3 of those have come in 2019.

Given the general sentiments towards Farrell on this forum I would definitely qualify as a Farrell apologist, but even I admit that his last 4 starts in the England 10 jersey have been utter poo.


I only use one stat to define Farrell for England and it's the number of tries we score with him at 10 compared to Ford at 10.

Plus the win %ages. Ford's is a lot higher and that's including the games he came off the bench in. If we only include games they started, I imagine the figure would be skewed even further.

The simple fact is we score fewer tries with Farrell at 10. And that's not good. Eddie must have noticed this. Just compare and contrast the 2 halves of the Italy game...

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Mikey Brown » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:10 am

Stom wrote:Just did a "fag packet" calculation that since the start of 2017, Farrell has a kicking %age of 79%.

Average.

Ford has 85%.

Let's leave that sink in...

The Iceman is worse at kicking for goal than the bottler.

And that's AFTER his big bottling days.


Average from what attempts though? Is it just the media hype that's got to me or does Ford only attempt them if they're bang in front and within a short range? I'm sure I've seen him handing over kicking duties at Leicester to people like Dan Cole in order to save his stats. While Farrell will bravely attempt to kick goals from our own 22.

ExAviator
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby ExAviator » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:38 am

Stom wrote:
Timbo wrote:
I only use one stat to define Farrell for England and it's the number of tries we score with him at 10 compared to Ford at 10.

Plus the win %ages. Ford's is a lot higher and that's including the games he came off the bench in. If we only include games they started, I imagine the figure would be skewed even further.

The simple fact is we score fewer tries with Farrell at 10. And that's not good. Eddie must have noticed this. Just compare and contrast the 2 halves of the Italy game...


Farrell tends to play 10 more in the earlier stages of a match than Ford who tends to feature more in later stages. Question: do England score more tries towards the end of a game? Another question: has the tendency been for Farrell to be selected at 10 for the matches against strong opponents with Ford selected to start against weaker teams?

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Puja » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:58 am

ExAviator wrote:
Stom wrote:
Timbo wrote:
I only use one stat to define Farrell for England and it's the number of tries we score with him at 10 compared to Ford at 10.

Plus the win %ages. Ford's is a lot higher and that's including the games he came off the bench in. If we only include games they started, I imagine the figure would be skewed even further.

The simple fact is we score fewer tries with Farrell at 10. And that's not good. Eddie must have noticed this. Just compare and contrast the 2 halves of the Italy game...


Farrell tends to play 10 more in the earlier stages of a match than Ford who tends to feature more in later stages. Question: do England score more tries towards the end of a game? Another question: has the tendency been for Farrell to be selected at 10 for the matches against strong opponents with Ford selected to start against weaker teams?


Not really. While Ford's ouster during the 2018-19 season meant he came on as a sub, he rarely got much in the way of game time off the bench, so that would've barely skewed the results at all.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Scrumhead » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 am

Mikey Brown wrote:
Stom wrote:Just did a "fag packet" calculation that since the start of 2017, Farrell has a kicking %age of 79%.

Average.

Ford has 85%.

Let's leave that sink in...

The Iceman is worse at kicking for goal than the bottler.

And that's AFTER his big bottling days.


Average from what attempts though? Is it just the media hype that's got to me or does Ford only attempt them if they're bang in front and within a short range? I'm sure I've seen him handing over kicking duties at Leicester to people like Dan Cole in order to save his stats. While Farrell will bravely attempt to kick goals from our own 22.


Not at all. Take the warm up games for example, I’m pretty sure Ford nailed most (possibly all of his kicks) and not all of them were ‘short range’.

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Stom
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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Stom » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:31 am

Scrumhead wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
Stom wrote:Just did a "fag packet" calculation that since the start of 2017, Farrell has a kicking %age of 79%.

Average.

Ford has 85%.

Let's leave that sink in...

The Iceman is worse at kicking for goal than the bottler.

And that's AFTER his big bottling days.


Average from what attempts though? Is it just the media hype that's got to me or does Ford only attempt them if they're bang in front and within a short range? I'm sure I've seen him handing over kicking duties at Leicester to people like Dan Cole in order to save his stats. While Farrell will bravely attempt to kick goals from our own 22.


Not at all. Take the warm up games for example, I’m pretty sure Ford nailed most (possibly all of his kicks) and not all of them were ‘short range’.


Ah, you obviously missed the bit about kicking maestro Dan Cole.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Renniks » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:15 pm

Scrumhead wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
Stom wrote:Just did a "fag packet" calculation that since the start of 2017, Farrell has a kicking %age of 79%.

Average.

Ford has 85%.

Let's leave that sink in...

The Iceman is worse at kicking for goal than the bottler.

And that's AFTER his big bottling days.


Average from what attempts though? Is it just the media hype that's got to me or does Ford only attempt them if they're bang in front and within a short range? I'm sure I've seen him handing over kicking duties at Leicester to people like Dan Cole in order to save his stats. While Farrell will bravely attempt to kick goals from our own 22.


Not at all. Take the warm up games for example, I’m pretty sure Ford nailed most (possibly all of his kicks) and not all of them were ‘short range’.


I'd also rather us kick for the corner than us miss 3 points…

And knowing you're limits is critical for a quality 10… I'd still not expect under 80% kicking for someone heralded as a great kicker, even if he is taking harder kicks

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby NorthWestRugby » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:36 pm

Renniks wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
Average from what attempts though? Is it just the media hype that's got to me or does Ford only attempt them if they're bang in front and within a short range? I'm sure I've seen him handing over kicking duties at Leicester to people like Dan Cole in order to save his stats. While Farrell will bravely attempt to kick goals from our own 22.


Not at all. Take the warm up games for example, I’m pretty sure Ford nailed most (possibly all of his kicks) and not all of them were ‘short range’.


I'd also rather us kick for the corner than us miss 3 points…

And knowing you're limits is critical for a quality 10… I'd still not expect under 80% kicking for someone heralded as a great kicker, even if he is taking harder kicks

That's a very good point. Despite the tongue in cheek remark about taking harder kicks etc, you do want your kicker to be realistic and know his range when it comes to penalties. You dont want your kicker taking kicks that are just outside his range and you want him to be confident to say we need to go for touch, especially as an apparent leader.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Beasties » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:25 pm

I remember the point being made during WC 2003 that Jonny's stats were amazing precisely because he went for kicks no other kicker was brave enough to attempt. My memory informs me that the Aussie kicker (Elton Flatley?) only went for the ones that were nailed on, although that might've been 2007 and Mortlock?

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Peej » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm

I remember Chris Paterson had great stats because he only took kicks that were relatively easy.

But back to the OP - the write up of Farrell was so wide of the mark it might have been a Dan Cole conversion attempt

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Mikey Brown » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:07 pm

Peej wrote:I remember Chris Paterson had great stats because he only took kicks that were relatively easy.

But back to the OP - the write up of Farrell was so wide of the mark it might have been a Dan Cole conversion attempt


I certainly remember people saying that a lot. He certainly wasn't banging them over from 50 metres but he wasn't just passing on the touchline conversions.

Was it Mortlock who used to take his touchline conversion kicks from an absurdly tight angle, presumably to make the kick shorter, though I'd definitely have said his problem was accuracy not distance. Maybe it wasn't Mortlock at all.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Peej » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Not sure about Mortlock. All I really remember about him was his ugly style, and the fact Australia used his kicking as an excuse to pick him when better players (and arguably kickers) were also available.

I defiantly remember Paterson turning down kicks 30m out inside the 15m channels though, and he had a range similar to Skrela or Bergamasco

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Oakboy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:37 pm

The earlier comment about a FH accepting his limitations applies just as much to touch-kicking of penalties. Why would Farrell or Ford kick conservatively when Daly or Slade are on the pitch? To be fair, I think Farrell has got a bit braver in the last few months but the point stands. It is another reason why the FH should not be captain, IMO.

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Digby » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:16 pm

Peej wrote:Not sure about Mortlock. All I really remember about him was his ugly style, and the fact Australia used his kicking as an excuse to pick him when better players (and arguably kickers) were also available.

I defiantly remember Paterson turning down kicks 30m out inside the 15m channels though, and he had a range similar to Skrela or Bergamasco


I'll bite, who were the Aussies ignoring that were better players than Mortlock?

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Re: Planet Rugby......

Postby Banquo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:09 pm

Digby wrote:
Peej wrote:Not sure about Mortlock. All I really remember about him was his ugly style, and the fact Australia used his kicking as an excuse to pick him when better players (and arguably kickers) were also available.

I defiantly remember Paterson turning down kicks 30m out inside the 15m channels though, and he had a range similar to Skrela or Bergamasco


I'll bite, who were the Aussies ignoring that were better players than Mortlock?

Good player Mortlock, even without the kicking.


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