Cipriani on the reserve list

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Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Puja » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Speaking of DC Sound Attack, the press have managed to get a quote of out Cipriani: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ed-miracle

"Going into a big competition I would have had to turn water into wine to really sway him."

“It would have been very difficult to do so. Eddie has put his faith in Ford and Faz and they have done well for him. I can completely understand why he made his decision. Do I think it was the right decision? I don’t know. I am going to support England and hope they go great.”

"He has backed Ford and Faz for so long and they have brought him success."

“I knew I was on the back foot so I went into this summer with no expectation. The only thing I could do was enjoy it. Eddie is a very strong character and he is not going to be swayed by anyone.

“What is a fair crack of the whip? I can’t go in there demanding [game] time. It is just characters and different people. Eddie is in a high-pressure situation being England coach and he has done a great job. If I was picking the team I would have picked myself for sure but, if they could, everyone would do that.”


Very measured and mature response from Cips and you'd have to say it's pretty fair. Interesting note further down the article though, where it says that "Eddie's had a big conversation with 10-12 of us" about being ready in case of injuries. Suggests he's next cab off the rank if one of Ford or Faz goes down.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Oakboy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:03 pm

For me, the fundamental attribute that should have seen Cipriani in the 10 shirt is that his presence would move the overall attacking peak of the side to a higher level than that achievable by Farrell or Ford. All other considerations are secondary.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Stom » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:43 pm

Oakboy wrote:For me, the fundamental attribute that should have seen Cipriani in the 10 shirt is that his presence would move the overall attacking peak of the side to a higher level than that achievable by Farrell or Ford. All other considerations are secondary.


Would it though?

I mean, obviously it would for Farrell, but would it for Ford?

Ford is wonderful at building attacks. He's an incredible attacking 10. Cipriani is a different type of attacking 10 but I wouldn't say he's going to get more out of the team than Ford would. In fact, I'd suggest Ford would get more out of England's backline than Cips.

But when you need to make something happen, Cips could have been that man on the bench to make it happen.

Alas, we have the iceman.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Oakboy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Stom wrote:
Oakboy wrote:For me, the fundamental attribute that should have seen Cipriani in the 10 shirt is that his presence would move the overall attacking peak of the side to a higher level than that achievable by Farrell or Ford. All other considerations are secondary.


Would it though?

I mean, obviously it would for Farrell, but would it for Ford?

Ford is wonderful at building attacks. He's an incredible attacking 10. Cipriani is a different type of attacking 10 but I wouldn't say he's going to get more out of the team than Ford would. In fact, I'd suggest Ford would get more out of England's backline than Cips.

But when you need to make something happen, Cips could have been that man on the bench to make it happen.

Alas, we have the iceman.


I'd go for Cipriani at 10 with Ford at 22 every time. Mind you, I'd still have Armand at 6 so what do I know? :D

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Stom » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:20 pm

Oakboy wrote:
Stom wrote:
Oakboy wrote:For me, the fundamental attribute that should have seen Cipriani in the 10 shirt is that his presence would move the overall attacking peak of the side to a higher level than that achievable by Farrell or Ford. All other considerations are secondary.


Would it though?

I mean, obviously it would for Farrell, but would it for Ford?

Ford is wonderful at building attacks. He's an incredible attacking 10. Cipriani is a different type of attacking 10 but I wouldn't say he's going to get more out of the team than Ford would. In fact, I'd suggest Ford would get more out of England's backline than Cips.

But when you need to make something happen, Cips could have been that man on the bench to make it happen.

Alas, we have the iceman.


I'd go for Cipriani at 10 with Ford at 22 every time. Mind you, I'd still have Armand at 6 so what do I know? :D


If Cips is at 10, Ford at 22 is pointless.

I actually think Ford is a starting 10 only, really. He's the guy you want controlling the game from the get go and setting the pace of the match.

Cips is wonderful at mixing things up, but he doesn't come close to Ford's control.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Puja » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:24 pm

Stom wrote:
Oakboy wrote:For me, the fundamental attribute that should have seen Cipriani in the 10 shirt is that his presence would move the overall attacking peak of the side to a higher level than that achievable by Farrell or Ford. All other considerations are secondary.


Would it though?

I mean, obviously it would for Farrell, but would it for Ford?

Ford is wonderful at building attacks. He's an incredible attacking 10. Cipriani is a different type of attacking 10 but I wouldn't say he's going to get more out of the team than Ford would. In fact, I'd suggest Ford would get more out of England's backline than Cips.

But when you need to make something happen, Cips could have been that man on the bench to make it happen.

Alas, we have the iceman.

Agreed - Cipriani's main value would have been in the 22 shirt, especially since his ability to cover 15 would mean he effectively covered 5 positions by shifting Daly to the wing or centre. As it is, I think we'll see Slade picked there, which isn't a bad option to have.

I still maintain Cipriani loses a lot of his utility if he's not in a team that's built around him though, so I can see Eddie's point that, if he's not starting, there's no place for him.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Lizard » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am

I was living in London when I first saw Cipriani play. I can still remember it. I was at a pub called the George & Vulture and he was on the telly. It was the first, maybe only time, that I’ve seen a young English player with the sort of X-factor that, in NZ, makes you say with absolute conviction “he’ll be an All Black.” His incredible natural talent has been criminally crushed, over-coached and wasted by the English system.
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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Puja » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:56 am

Lizard wrote:I was living in London when I first saw Cipriani play. I can still remember it. I was at a pub called the George & Vulture and he was on the telly. It was the first, maybe only time, that I’ve seen a young English player with the sort of X-factor that, in NZ, makes you say with absolute conviction “he’ll be an All Black.” His incredible natural talent has been criminally crushed, over-coached and wasted by the English system.


Not sure I agree with the inditement of our system. He was on an upward spiral until that horrendous break of his ankle, then he played the first 5 games of the Johnson era after having returned from his injury too soon and was terrible, then he had disciplinary problems, then he went to Australia to play for the Rebels (and grow up a bit). The loss of his potential was mostly due to that injury and the too-early return - cost him two yards of pace, his confidence, and his England place.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Renniks » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:02 pm

I'd have built a team around Cipriani in a heartbeat when he was playing well at Wasps (and continued to do so at Glos)

Playing the right 9 and 12 for him, and going with a powerful, athletic pack and I genuinely think we'd have looked a much team with Cipriani pulling the strings for the last ~3 years

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby fivepointer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:04 pm

He is a talent we've failed to get the best out of in an England shirt. Notwithstanding the injury and Aussie sojourn, can't help being a bit frustrated that he has had such limited opportunities.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby TheDasher » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:08 pm

I've always thought that he's the most talented 10 we have. But I sympathize with those managers who have left him out. There's no smoke without fire and he's obviously been a bit of a pain at times, which frankly, is not what you want in your squad.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Digby » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:20 pm

I'd be willing to accept the no prats rule if the team were rather more successful or at least decent to watch. I've no time for it whilst England serve up dross.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Danno » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:37 pm

Puja wrote:I still maintain Cipriani loses a lot of his utility if he's not in a team that's built around him though, so I can see Eddie's point that, if he's not starting, there's no place for him.

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This creates a lot of issues in itself - see Billy in 2016 & 2017 before we had other carriers to call on.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Oakboy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:46 pm

I think it's simple. Farrell and Cipriani are oil and water. Jones is not a good enough man-manager to have both in the squad.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Peat » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:17 pm

Puja wrote:
Lizard wrote:I was living in London when I first saw Cipriani play. I can still remember it. I was at a pub called the George & Vulture and he was on the telly. It was the first, maybe only time, that I’ve seen a young English player with the sort of X-factor that, in NZ, makes you say with absolute conviction “he’ll be an All Black.” His incredible natural talent has been criminally crushed, over-coached and wasted by the English system.


Not sure I agree with the inditement of our system. He was on an upward spiral until that horrendous break of his ankle, then he played the first 5 games of the Johnson era after having returned from his injury too soon and was terrible, then he had disciplinary problems, then he went to Australia to play for the Rebels (and grow up a bit). The loss of his potential was mostly due to that injury and the too-early return - cost him two yards of pace, his confidence, and his England place.

Puja


Yea. Maybe coaching failed him - both as a player and as a human, I notice that Myall pointed out a lot of his England age group contemporaries have had discipline problems as adults - but the two big failure points of Cips' career has been his injury and his maturity, which seems to have blossomed late. And I'm not usually inclined to defend our system. Maybe it'd have failed him at the crunch, but he simply never got there.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Banquo » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:24 pm

Lizard wrote:I was living in London when I first saw Cipriani play. I can still remember it. I was at a pub called the George & Vulture and he was on the telly. It was the first, maybe only time, that I’ve seen a young English player with the sort of X-factor that, in NZ, makes you say with absolute conviction “he’ll be an All Black.” His incredible natural talent has been criminally crushed, over-coached and wasted by the English system.

I was with you to the last sentence. He was flying until a terrible leg injury took away a couple of years from his development, combined with being rushed back into action; in that period, his poor attitude became clear, he became more fond of celebrity, and buggered off to Australia. The rest is a mess, bar the last couple of years where he has been consistently good in the Premiership.

It would have been more binary situation in kiwi land- you would certainly have embraced his talent and optimised his skills, but you would not have tolerated his terrible defence when he was younger, and certainly his attitude would have jarred as well. I think you'd have dealt with him in the same way you would have dealt with Quade Cooper.

I do think its been a colossal waste of talent, but a lot is down to some early ill fortune and his own attitude. Like you, when I first saw him, I thought he'd be a great.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Digby » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:52 pm

In isolation wasting a talent like Cips is understandable, but the number of wasted talented players is alarming, whether it's been done in the name of honesty or stupidity

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Puja » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:04 pm

Digby wrote:In isolation wasting a talent like Cips is understandable, but the number of wasted talented players is alarming, whether it's been done in the name of honesty or stupidity


Back in the 2004-2011 period, I'd 100% agree with you. Can you name anyone that we have wasted in the past 5-6 years?

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Danno » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:09 pm

... Sam Jones >. >

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Renniks » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:12 pm

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:In isolation wasting a talent like Cips is understandable, but the number of wasted talented players is alarming, whether it's been done in the name of honesty or stupidity


Back in the 2004-2011 period, I'd 100% agree with you. Can you name anyone that we have wasted in the past 5-6 years?

Puja


For various different reasons, and some of them maybe stretching “wasted”, but, I think all 5 of these would have improved England at times when they were playing at their best…

Wade
S Armitage
Pennell
Tait
Kvesic

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Puja » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:41 pm

Renniks wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:In isolation wasting a talent like Cips is understandable, but the number of wasted talented players is alarming, whether it's been done in the name of honesty or stupidity


Back in the 2004-2011 period, I'd 100% agree with you. Can you name anyone that we have wasted in the past 5-6 years?

Puja


For various different reasons, and some of them maybe stretching “wasted”, but, I think all 5 of these would have improved England at times when they were playing at their best…

Wade
S Armitage
Pennell
Tait
Kvesic


Wade, I will give you. SArmitage made his own choice and it's not really our fault that he thought he was better than the rules. Pennell as well - his best form was at the same time as Brown's and then he chose to stay loyal to Wuss when they went down and gave up any chance of England. Tait seems like an odd call post 2011 and Kvesic is marginal at best.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Stom » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:57 pm

Puja wrote:
Renniks wrote:
Puja wrote:
Back in the 2004-2011 period, I'd 100% agree with you. Can you name anyone that we have wasted in the past 5-6 years?

Puja


For various different reasons, and some of them maybe stretching “wasted”, but, I think all 5 of these would have improved England at times when they were playing at their best…

Wade
S Armitage
Pennell
Tait
Kvesic


Wade, I will give you. SArmitage made his own choice and it's not really our fault that he thought he was better than the rules. Pennell as well - his best form was at the same time as Brown's and then he chose to stay loyal to Wuss when they went down and gave up any chance of England. Tait seems like an odd call post 2011 and Kvesic is marginal at best.

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Tommy the Tank, surely!

Dan Robson?

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Digby » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:21 pm

Puja wrote:
Renniks wrote:
Puja wrote:
Back in the 2004-2011 period, I'd 100% agree with you. Can you name anyone that we have wasted in the past 5-6 years?

Puja


For various different reasons, and some of them maybe stretching “wasted”, but, I think all 5 of these would have improved England at times when they were playing at their best…

Wade
S Armitage
Pennell
Tait
Kvesic


Wade, I will give you. SArmitage made his own choice and it's not really our fault that he thought he was better than the rules. Pennell as well - his best form was at the same time as Brown's and then he chose to stay loyal to Wuss when they went down and gave up any chance of England. Tait seems like an odd call post 2011 and Kvesic is marginal at best.

Puja


Our rules are our rules, I don't go along with it myself but even if you do like our rules we still wasted Steff Armitage in the name of the greater good.

And surely inside the last 5 years we've ignored the likes of Eastmond (might not have delivered but is without question a talent) to expose the likes of Burgess and Tomkins. We've stalled with the likes of Devoto, Brookes, Rokoduguni, Hill and Lozowski so we can continue with Cole, select Te'o up until the RWC, and probably the most recent examples would be Mercer and Isiekwe (though they'll get a chance to come again)

I'd also say we ignore talent like May, JJ and so on as we simply refuse to pass to them with sensible structures in place. Sure the kicking game has positives, but just picking someone doesn't mean we're not wasting talent.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby jngf » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:00 pm

Even without the (IMO criminal) waste of talent of not selecting Steffon Armitage, Many other quality opensides wasted in past 5 years: Dave Seymore, Matt Kvesvic, Andy Saul and arguably even Tom Wood could all have done a better job in that berth than either Robshaw or Haskell (both of whom were 6.5s at best) imo.

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Re: Cipriani on the reserve list

Postby Mikey Brown » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:27 pm

I can definitely see Devoto being a player we look back at and wonder why we didn’t make any use of him.


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