England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

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Oakboy
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Oakboy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:29 pm

Our forwards are better than theirs overall and our back three match anybody's. 9, 10, 12, 13 are the only ones who can lose us the game. For this particular fixture I'd choose Heinz, Ford, Tuilagi, JJ.

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Puja
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Puja » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:58 pm

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:But they do have some quality players, and can put points on anyone


True, but Genia's a shadow of his former self to the extent that Nic White is being selected ahead of him, they have no idea who's playing fly-half, and their main threat in Beale might be out injured after a big blow to the head today.

Famous last words, but this Australian side does't scare me. Out of the quarter finallists I'd probably choose them to play against (on the basis that the Japanese might have a monumental game in them in front of their crowd).

Puja


They nearly beat Wales playing for just 40 minutes, and that's not. defence that tends to gift points (ignoring Parkes and JD have clearly been playing drunk). I've thought given relative resources available to Australia they've had the best attack going in rugby for a long time, though like Scotland (albeit with rather more talent than Scotland) they can overdo it somewhat. Here's hoping Genia is quiet, or perhaps here's hoping we play as we could/should


Wales still have an inferiority complex to the SH sides. They go in thinking themselves the plucky underdogs against a mighty side, even when the formbook shows that they're superior. They're still relieved to get a win, not expecting one. No-one on this England team has any fear of Australia after the 0-3 tour. Respect, certainly, and they are a dangerous side, but we don't fear them.

Famous. Last. Words.

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Mellsblue
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mellsblue » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:00 pm

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
True, but Genia's a shadow of his former self to the extent that Nic White is being selected ahead of him, they have no idea who's playing fly-half, and their main threat in Beale might be out injured after a big blow to the head today.

Famous last words, but this Australian side does't scare me. Out of the quarter finallists I'd probably choose them to play against (on the basis that the Japanese might have a monumental game in them in front of their crowd).

Puja


They nearly beat Wales playing for just 40 minutes, and that's not. defence that tends to gift points (ignoring Parkes and JD have clearly been playing drunk). I've thought given relative resources available to Australia they've had the best attack going in rugby for a long time, though like Scotland (albeit with rather more talent than Scotland) they can overdo it somewhat. Here's hoping Genia is quiet, or perhaps here's hoping we play as we could/should


Wales still have an inferiority complex to the SH sides. They go in thinking themselves the plucky underdogs against a mighty side, even when the formbook shows that they're superior. They're still relieved to get a win, not expecting one. No-one on this England team has any fear of Australia after the 0-3 tour. Respect, certainly, and they are a dangerous side, but we don't fear them.

Famous. Last. Words.

Puja

Ffs, Puja.
Ah, well. At least we made out of the pool stages even if we played exactly the same amount of games as we did in 2015.

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Stom
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Stom » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:43 pm

No, honestly. This isn't a good Aussie team. The two islanders in the backs are dangerous, and Beale can sometimes make things happen. Hooper and Pocock are very good.

The rest? Pretty terrible, tbh.

I will be disappointed with anything other than a decent win.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Scrumhead » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:15 pm

We will make life difficult for ourselves as we normally do, but I’m with Stom. I will be very disappointed with anything other than a win.

I think it’s fair to say we’re a better team than we were in 2015. I don’t think you can say that about Australia.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Cameo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:58 pm

Not that it counts for anything but I have been very impressed by Latu, their hooker, this tournament

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Beasties » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:03 am

Yup, and the no8 seems pretty dynamic.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Which Tyler » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:36 am

Renniks wrote:Not even close to confident.

We're rusty, missing game time, not getting the best out of the squad as a whole, and if they manage to nullify our gameplan, we don't seem to adapt to a plan B.

Not to mention Billy underperforming (and potentially not being fit),
a risk of Ford being dropped lingers for big games,
Mako / Marler fitness situation is far from ideal,
Oh, and Ben Youngs and Willi Heinz being our scrum halves still,

The only glimmer of hope was that they struggled against Georgia - and that if things click for us we are the better team

This
We're a better team, but we haven't shown it yet, but are arriving rusty, and with all momentum robbed away. In a one-off knock-out match, Aus do have the ability to beat us, even without the above

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Digby » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:47 am

There is of course what's the point of games you might not lose? It is supposed to be a test match. I'm looking forward to it, which is unusual for an England game these days

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Scrumhead » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:37 am

Did you prefer watching us under Lancaster, Johnson, Robinson et al?

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Oakboy
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Oakboy » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:15 am

Scrumhead wrote:Did you prefer watching us under Lancaster, Johnson, Robinson et al?


Interesting question, that. Jones definitely has superior playing resources compared with his predecessors. What matters for me is the extent to which he has maximised those resources and I'd say the ballpark figure is in the order of 75-80%. It's a subjective measure, based on opinion only, of course, but the comparison with the others has a smidgeon of relevance. I'd suggest all three averaged around 60-80% overall.

None produced thrilling rugby. Jones has underachieved but not quite as badly as the others perhaps.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Raggs » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:27 am

Jones has produced some good rugby, using our wingers etc. Lancaster was doing so then suddenly became a lot more conservative unfortunately.

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Mr Mwenda
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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mr Mwenda » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:23 am

Much prefer to watch Jones' England on the whole than pretty much any other coach for a while.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mellsblue » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:37 am

Lancaster’s England for the 18 months prior to the World Cup was probably my favourite post 2003 team to watch.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby p/d » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Mellsblue wrote:Lancaster’s England for the 18 months prior to the World Cup was probably my favourite post 2003 team to watch.

This.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mr Mwenda » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Remind me which matches you mean? It's all faded for me beyond that great game v the kiwis.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mellsblue » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:55 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote:Remind me which matches you mean? It's all faded for me beyond that great game v the kiwis.

Mostly when Ford was top points scorer and Joseph top try scorer in the 6N. We even made a 12T & Burrell centre partnership look good.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Scrumhead » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Is suppose you need to define what getting 100% from this group of players would actually before we put a percentage on what Eddie’s getting from them.

To me 100% would be winning every game with a great performance epitomising razor sharp attack and rock solid defence. Even the All Blacks struggle to do that consistently.

At times under Eddie we’ve looked very good indeed. The away win over Ireland stands out as on of our best performances under his tenure mainly because of the intensity we brought over the full 80. Our weakness is typically that we can’t maintain it. Taking Scotland as the most obvious example, we’re often guilty of building a big score and then dropping the intensity to the point that we switch off. Until we fix that, he’ll only ever be getting 75-80% out of the squad.

I think we can also argue that Eddie’s publicly stated lack of belief in the skill level of our players is another limitation. We seem to play to a prescriptive game plan when it often feels like we could be better with more freedom to play off the cuff.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby fivepointer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:18 pm

I've enjoyed a lot of rugby we've played under Jones. Our win ratio is very acceptable and our try scoring bears comparison with his predecessors. We do have a habit of playing in fits and starts, but when we are on song we can look very impressive.
What has marked out Jones time in charge is the lack of really obviously bad selection calls. Sure, he makes the odd one that raises an eyebrow but nothing like the ones we had with previous coaches.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Danno » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:04 pm

fivepointer wrote:I've enjoyed a lot of rugby we've played under Jones. Our win ratio is very acceptable and our try scoring bears comparison with his predecessors. We do have a habit of playing in fits and starts, but when we are on song we can look very impressive.
What has marked out Jones time in charge is the lack of really obviously bad selection calls. Sure, he makes the odd one that raises an eyebrow but nothing like the ones we had with previous coaches.


I'm largely with you, but the Youngs/Farrell halfback pairing despite form, plus the stubborn perseverance with locks at 6 and Daly at FB is really obviously bad.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Mellsblue » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:14 pm

Danno wrote:
fivepointer wrote:I've enjoyed a lot of rugby we've played under Jones. Our win ratio is very acceptable and our try scoring bears comparison with his predecessors. We do have a habit of playing in fits and starts, but when we are on song we can look very impressive.
What has marked out Jones time in charge is the lack of really obviously bad selection calls. Sure, he makes the odd one that raises an eyebrow but nothing like the ones we had with previous coaches.


I'm largely with you, but the Youngs/Farrell halfback pairing despite form, plus the stubborn perseverance with locks at 6 and Daly at FB is really obviously bad.

True. Also, Wilson didn’t suddenly become at test class 6 at 29. Burrell didn’t suddenly become a non test class player in the 30th min of a test v Oz. Harrison was also a bum call. Heinz’s last minute selection also doesn’t scream of a great selection policy. He also hung on to Hartley too long. He’s definitely in the credit column with selection but he’s far from perfect.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Danno » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Mellsblue wrote:
Danno wrote:
fivepointer wrote:I've enjoyed a lot of rugby we've played under Jones. Our win ratio is very acceptable and our try scoring bears comparison with his predecessors. We do have a habit of playing in fits and starts, but when we are on song we can look very impressive.
What has marked out Jones time in charge is the lack of really obviously bad selection calls. Sure, he makes the odd one that raises an eyebrow but nothing like the ones we had with previous coaches.


I'm largely with you, but the Youngs/Farrell halfback pairing despite form, plus the stubborn perseverance with locks at 6 and Daly at FB is really obviously bad.

True. Also, Wilson didn’t suddenly become at test class 6 at 29. Burrell didn’t suddenly become a non test class player in the 30th min of a test v Oz. Harrison was also a bum call. Heinz’s last minute selection also doesn’t scream of a great selection policy. He also hung on to Hartley too long. He’s definitely in the credit column with selection but he’s far from perfect.


All of these. Plus the 'finishers' thing. And god only knows how we're managing to avoid mentioning T'eo.

5p has a point though, he hasn't pulled a [redacted]

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Oakboy » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:49 pm

I'd suggest that the team's ceiling could be higher with Cipriani at 10, one of the younger SHs fully integrated and a fair selection crack given to a few others who may have made a difference. None of it is an X or Y selection opinion, more a reflection of stubborn adherence to pre-conceived ideas on Jones's part. It's related to his coaching back-up, his play-by-numbers planning and his failure to produce a good forward captain to take over from Hartley.

The team is simply not as good as it should be for consistent long periods throughout each game and from game to game.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby richy678 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:32 pm

Just going to say its always Australia for us at world cups.

In some ways, I always feel we've got more chance against the Boks in a one-off.

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Re: England vs Australia 19th of Oct, 8.15am GMT

Postby Timbo » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:20 pm

richy678 wrote:Just going to say its always Australia for us at world cups.

In some ways, I always feel we've got more chance against the Boks in a one-off.


Intuitively I would say that we have a winning record against Oz at world cups, and a losing record against the Boks?


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