Snap General Election called

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:06 pm

Puja wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:They occasionally find it. During the 00s the joint desire of the two main parties to start an illegal war pushed them to a position of relevance and only FPTP prevented them from holding a significant chunk of parliament. Clegg destroyed all that.

Clegg discovered that grown up politics meant compromises and took the only option open to him (aside from a a supply relationship with the Tories). Many of their supporters didn’t understand that and were used to the purity of opposition and couldn’t handle government.


Clegg got properly fucked by more experienced politicians. I don't blame him for compromising and working with the Conservatives; I blame him for compromising on a major piece of their policy that was a major driver of their vote and doing something which he'd specifically and categorically stated that he would not do pre-election. I also blame him for failing entirely to get his 30 pieces of silver's worth by allowing the AV referendum to be arranged immediately after him voting for tuition fees and allowing his coalition partners to turn it into a popularity vote on Clegg. I also blame him for losing control of the coalition and allowing the Conservatives to renege on supporting the reform of the House of Lords.

Supporting the Conservatives would've been forgiveable if they'd accomplished something. As it was, they enabled austerity and increased tuition fees, with the only part of their manifesto coming through being the raised basic tax threshold, which the Conservatives promptly adopted as their policy and their success.

Puja



Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Sandydragon » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 am

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:Clegg discovered that grown up politics meant compromises and took the only option open to him (aside from a a supply relationship with the Tories). Many of their supporters didn’t understand that and were used to the purity of opposition and couldn’t handle government.


Clegg got properly fucked by more experienced politicians. I don't blame him for compromising and working with the Conservatives; I blame him for compromising on a major piece of their policy that was a major driver of their vote and doing something which he'd specifically and categorically stated that he would not do pre-election. I also blame him for failing entirely to get his 30 pieces of silver's worth by allowing the AV referendum to be arranged immediately after him voting for tuition fees and allowing his coalition partners to turn it into a popularity vote on Clegg. I also blame him for losing control of the coalition and allowing the Conservatives to renege on supporting the reform of the House of Lords.

Supporting the Conservatives would've been forgiveable if they'd accomplished something. As it was, they enabled austerity and increased tuition fees, with the only part of their manifesto coming through being the raised basic tax threshold, which the Conservatives promptly adopted as their policy and their success.

Puja



Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks

The idea that 50% of students would go to university was always just a New Labour gimmick. We need a properly thought out higher education system where those who are bright enough to go to university (regardless of background) can do so. Most will benefit more from an apprenticeship and can probably pick up a degree later whilst working. This idea that most young people should spend 3 years (or more) running up huge debts which they struggle to pay off on graduation because their degree is worthless is negligence writ large.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Puja » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:52 am

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:Clegg discovered that grown up politics meant compromises and took the only option open to him (aside from a a supply relationship with the Tories). Many of their supporters didn’t understand that and were used to the purity of opposition and couldn’t handle government.


Clegg got properly fucked by more experienced politicians. I don't blame him for compromising and working with the Conservatives; I blame him for compromising on a major piece of their policy that was a major driver of their vote and doing something which he'd specifically and categorically stated that he would not do pre-election. I also blame him for failing entirely to get his 30 pieces of silver's worth by allowing the AV referendum to be arranged immediately after him voting for tuition fees and allowing his coalition partners to turn it into a popularity vote on Clegg. I also blame him for losing control of the coalition and allowing the Conservatives to renege on supporting the reform of the House of Lords.

Supporting the Conservatives would've been forgiveable if they'd accomplished something. As it was, they enabled austerity and increased tuition fees, with the only part of their manifesto coming through being the raised basic tax threshold, which the Conservatives promptly adopted as their policy and their success.

Puja



Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks


The Lords reform was part of the coalition agreement, IIRC. The Conservatives reneged on whipping their MPs because they were annoyed at something/looking for an excuse and so it didn't pass.

I completely accept that removing tuition fees was never on the table, but Clegg was an absolute fool to agree to voting to increase them after basing his entire campaign around a) I'm not like those other politicians, I'm honest, and b) the Lib Dems stand against tuition fees and will always, always oppose them. Cut him off at the knees in one fell swoop.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:10 am

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Clegg got properly fucked by more experienced politicians. I don't blame him for compromising and working with the Conservatives; I blame him for compromising on a major piece of their policy that was a major driver of their vote and doing something which he'd specifically and categorically stated that he would not do pre-election. I also blame him for failing entirely to get his 30 pieces of silver's worth by allowing the AV referendum to be arranged immediately after him voting for tuition fees and allowing his coalition partners to turn it into a popularity vote on Clegg. I also blame him for losing control of the coalition and allowing the Conservatives to renege on supporting the reform of the House of Lords.

Supporting the Conservatives would've been forgiveable if they'd accomplished something. As it was, they enabled austerity and increased tuition fees, with the only part of their manifesto coming through being the raised basic tax threshold, which the Conservatives promptly adopted as their policy and their success.

Puja



Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks


The Lords reform was part of the coalition agreement, IIRC. The Conservatives reneged on whipping their MPs because they were annoyed at something/looking for an excuse and so it didn't pass.

I completely accept that removing tuition fees was never on the table, but Clegg was an absolute fool to agree to voting to increase them after basing his entire campaign around a) I'm not like those other politicians, I'm honest, and b) the Lib Dems stand against tuition fees and will always, always oppose them. Cut him off at the knees in one fell swoop.

Puja


Clearly the Lib Dem policy switch went over very badly with the public, though as was noted at the time it was in reality a smaller thing than Cameron going back on no top down reform of the NHS, and Cameron only gained support after a bigger volte face, so it's not obvious in advance what you'll pay a price for, they took a swing that people would accept the trade because it was a coalition government not a Lib Dem one, they weren't themselves opposed to it given the leadership thought the policy daft, hindsight made fools of them.

Cameron did bail on whipping the MPs on Lords reform once it was obvious to him he was going to have a problem and didn't want to lose. Cameron thought he'd be able to get back to the issue from a stronger position but was never able to do so, indeed one might observe it showed the crazy lunatic wing of the CPP they would be able to push on other issues too, partly because they were/are insane, and because Cameron was to them a bit of a wishy washy EU loving lefty who whilst a useful tool to get them back into power wasn't one of their own, and so for all it scuppered the Lords reform, and fractured further the Clegg/Cameron dynamic it also put holes in Cameron's leadership he was never able to recover from. Ed Miliband was an important figure in this too, he wasn't entirely wrong about some of the procedural concerns in legislating time for the bill, but his directive for Labour MPs to vote against a bill he would have broadly supported allowed the Tory MPs to have a platform to build on, had Miliband supported a bill he basically agreed with proceeding who knows what would have happened next. That's perhaps fanciful because I think the rise of the ERG, the rise of UKIP and so on was coming almost whatever.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:13 am

Sandydragon wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Clegg got properly fucked by more experienced politicians. I don't blame him for compromising and working with the Conservatives; I blame him for compromising on a major piece of their policy that was a major driver of their vote and doing something which he'd specifically and categorically stated that he would not do pre-election. I also blame him for failing entirely to get his 30 pieces of silver's worth by allowing the AV referendum to be arranged immediately after him voting for tuition fees and allowing his coalition partners to turn it into a popularity vote on Clegg. I also blame him for losing control of the coalition and allowing the Conservatives to renege on supporting the reform of the House of Lords.

Supporting the Conservatives would've been forgiveable if they'd accomplished something. As it was, they enabled austerity and increased tuition fees, with the only part of their manifesto coming through being the raised basic tax threshold, which the Conservatives promptly adopted as their policy and their success.

Puja



Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks

The idea that 50% of students would go to university was always just a New Labour gimmick. We need a properly thought out higher education system where those who are bright enough to go to university (regardless of background) can do so. Most will benefit more from an apprenticeship and can probably pick up a degree later whilst working. This idea that most young people should spend 3 years (or more) running up huge debts which they struggle to pay off on graduation because their degree is worthless is negligence writ large.


There's little support for such thinking though. People want their children to go, and they want someone else to pay for it.

I've noted before the number of markers we're checking off that having us running 20-30 years behind Greece for being an economic basket case is both alarming and amusing.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Puja » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:29 am

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:

Worth noting Clegg and other party leaders around at the time didn't want the tuition fees policy, it was a conference idea that Clegg and others never worked out how to pay for. As with many Lib Dem ideas the idea is you never have to worry how to make them reality, faced with having to account for it they were in my estimation only too happy to drop something they never wanted. I do have a solution to the problem of funding universities, bin off a huge number of universities, something like 50% now attend them which means by definition some bang average students are going, which beyond being expensive is wasteful. As ever I'd struggle to get a loyal dog to vote for me with such popular thinking. Likewise my idea to (sort of) bin GPs has never really found an audience

Not sure what he was supposed to do as Lib Dem leader to stop Conservative and Labour MPs voting against the Lords reform. It'd be far more reasonable to blame Clegg for the failure to reform the Commons, the number of MPs and the numbers in each constituency, that's something which should have happened but the Lib Dems pulled the rug from under because they were pissed off about the AV bollocks


The Lords reform was part of the coalition agreement, IIRC. The Conservatives reneged on whipping their MPs because they were annoyed at something/looking for an excuse and so it didn't pass.

I completely accept that removing tuition fees was never on the table, but Clegg was an absolute fool to agree to voting to increase them after basing his entire campaign around a) I'm not like those other politicians, I'm honest, and b) the Lib Dems stand against tuition fees and will always, always oppose them. Cut him off at the knees in one fell swoop.

Puja


Clearly the Lib Dem policy switch went over very badly with the public, though as was noted at the time it was in reality a smaller thing than Cameron going back on no top down reform of the NHS, and Cameron only gained support after a bigger volte face, so it's not obvious in advance what you'll pay a price for, they took a swing that people would accept the trade because it was a coalition government not a Lib Dem one, they weren't themselvesopposed to it given the leadership thought the policy daft, hindsight made fools of them.


I think the difference is that no-one votes for the Conservatives because they're impressed by their personal honesty and virtue. Clegg won power for the Lib Dems based almost entirely on his personal brand and that brand involved him saying "We will never vote for tuition fees" on several public occasions.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:23 am

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
The Lords reform was part of the coalition agreement, IIRC. The Conservatives reneged on whipping their MPs because they were annoyed at something/looking for an excuse and so it didn't pass.

I completely accept that removing tuition fees was never on the table, but Clegg was an absolute fool to agree to voting to increase them after basing his entire campaign around a) I'm not like those other politicians, I'm honest, and b) the Lib Dems stand against tuition fees and will always, always oppose them. Cut him off at the knees in one fell swoop.

Puja


Clearly the Lib Dem policy switch went over very badly with the public, though as was noted at the time it was in reality a smaller thing than Cameron going back on no top down reform of the NHS, and Cameron only gained support after a bigger volte face, so it's not obvious in advance what you'll pay a price for, they took a swing that people would accept the trade because it was a coalition government not a Lib Dem one, they weren't themselvesopposed to it given the leadership thought the policy daft, hindsight made fools of them.


I think the difference is that no-one votes for the Conservatives because they're impressed by their personal honesty and virtue. Clegg won power for the Lib Dems based almost entirely on his personal brand and that brand involved him saying "We will never vote for tuition fees" on several public occasions.

Puja


I don't disagree the Lib Dems are being held to entirely different standards to broken commitments from the Tories, or indeed from Labour. I know people who will now only vote Tory because of the Lib Dem broken pledge, and they're not remotely perturbed by that double standard.

That said they didn't do well in the 2010 election just because of the pledge on tuition fees. The party built itself up from a long time back starting under Ashdown's leadership:

18% of the votes in 1992 for 22 seats
17% of the votes in 1997 for 46 seats
18% of the seats in 2001 for 52 seats (by now under Kennedy)
22% of the votes in 2005 for 62 seats
23% of the votes in 2010 for 57 seats

So you could argue the Lib Dem pledge actually cost them 5 seats in the first place, though that would be unwise because many factors were at play beyond tertiary eduction funding. You could I suppose also claim for all they lost seats in the 2010 election that the tuition fees pledge garnered an extra 1% or so of the overall vote.

Basically over many years, and probably driven by local government efforts as much as the charismatic leadership of Ashdown and Kennedy the party was gaining around a fifth of the votes for nothing like a fifth of the seats under FPP. That charismatic drive was continued under Clegg, I wonder of anyone now wishes Chris Huhne had beaten Clegg to the leadership, certainly since Clegg they haven't gone for charismatic leaders, and that too comes with issues.

For all I think it a misleading narrative the pledge is what put the party into power because it ignores so much else I certainly accept the broken pledge on tuition fees has destroyed their number of seats in the HoC, and they've dropped from around a fifth of votes to less than a tenth, comfortably less, and a worse showing still in actual seats. Still it's an in interesting narrative conveyed by the media on the back of just one issue that they only grew into the position that Clegg undermined because of their tuition fees pledge, a narrative put forward by Labour and Tory supporting media that does seem to overlook the reality of where the party came from but has become both accepted dogma and something of a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't recall other instances of a party gaining an extra 1% of the vote for a pledge which they broke, and all parties break pledges, doing anything like this to other parties.

But it is what it is, they'll either find a way to deal with it or continue to fail. There's no easy or obvious path for a moderate social democratic party right now, especially one willing to compromise. The electorate is keener on tribalism, almost we looked at the Clegg/Cameron partnership and said you know what, we'd rather have cooperation like they have in the Northern Ireland Assembly, quick, send for Arlene Foster

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Puja » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:35 pm

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Clearly the Lib Dem policy switch went over very badly with the public, though as was noted at the time it was in reality a smaller thing than Cameron going back on no top down reform of the NHS, and Cameron only gained support after a bigger volte face, so it's not obvious in advance what you'll pay a price for, they took a swing that people would accept the trade because it was a coalition government not a Lib Dem one, they weren't themselvesopposed to it given the leadership thought the policy daft, hindsight made fools of them.


I think the difference is that no-one votes for the Conservatives because they're impressed by their personal honesty and virtue. Clegg won power for the Lib Dems based almost entirely on his personal brand and that brand involved him saying "We will never vote for tuition fees" on several public occasions.

Puja


I don't disagree the Lib Dems are being held to entirely different standards to broken commitments from the Tories, or indeed from Labour. I know people who will now only vote Tory because of the Lib Dem broken pledge, and they're not remotely perturbed by that double standard.

That said they didn't do well in the 2010 election just because of the pledge on tuition fees. The party built itself up from a long time back starting under Ashdown's leadership:

18% of the votes in 1992 for 22 seats
17% of the votes in 1997 for 46 seats
18% of the seats in 2001 for 52 seats (by now under Kennedy)
22% of the votes in 2005 for 62 seats
23% of the votes in 2010 for 57 seats

So you could argue the Lib Dem pledge actually cost them 5 seats in the first place, though that would be unwise because many factors were at play beyond tertiary eduction funding. You could I suppose also claim for all they lost seats in the 2010 election that the tuition fees pledge garnered an extra 1% or so of the overall vote.

Basically over many years, and probably driven by local government efforts as much as the charismatic leadership of Ashdown and Kennedy the party was gaining around a fifth of the votes for nothing like a fifth of the seats under FPP. That charismatic drive was continued under Clegg, I wonder of anyone now wishes Chris Huhne had beaten Clegg to the leadership, certainly since Clegg they haven't gone for charismatic leaders, and that too comes with issues.

For all I think it a misleading narrative the pledge is what put the party into power because it ignores so much else I certainly accept the broken pledge on tuition fees has destroyed their number of seats in the HoC, and they've dropped from around a fifth of votes to less than a tenth, comfortably less, and a worse showing still in actual seats. Still it's an in interesting narrative conveyed by the media on the back of just one issue that they only grew into the position that Clegg undermined because of their tuition fees pledge, a narrative put forward by Labour and Tory supporting media that does seem to overlook the reality of where the party came from but has become both accepted dogma and something of a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't recall other instances of a party gaining an extra 1% of the vote for a pledge which they broke, and all parties break pledges, doing anything like this to other parties.

But it is what it is, they'll either find a way to deal with it or continue to fail. There's no easy or obvious path for a moderate social democratic party right now, especially one willing to compromise. The electorate is keener on tribalism, almost we looked at the Clegg/Cameron partnership and said you know what, we'd rather have cooperation like they have in the Northern Ireland Assembly, quick, send for Arlene Foster


Bolded bit is a contender for understatement of the century.

You make a fair point that it wasn't just tuition fees that got them to power - I think you're right that it's fairer to say that breaking it lost them power, rather than the promise gained them power. I'd still say Clegg is a muppet who got utterly mugged off in the negotiations by only having one policy achievement in exchange for supporting austerity and losing any chance of future Lib Dem power. What they lost was not worth raising the basic rate of tax.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Son of Mathonwy » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:38 pm

Sorry guys, looks like I set off a Clegg bomb in this thread. ;)

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:08 pm

Puja wrote:
Bolded bit is a contender for understatement of the century.

You make a fair point that it wasn't just tuition fees that got them to power - I think you're right that it's fairer to say that breaking it lost them power, rather than the promise gained them power. I'd still say Clegg is a muppet who got utterly mugged off in the negotiations by only having one policy achievement in exchange for supporting austerity and losing any chance of future Lib Dem power. What they lost was not worth raising the basic rate of tax.

Puja



Maybe they got done over, well they did get somewhat done over, but they were the minority party in government and by a substantial margin. They shouldn't have had their views win out on most if any issues.

What Clegg was is a leader without a party. I suppose you could almost say he wasn't a leader because he didn't lead them anywhere, he just happened to be the supposed boss. The wider party wasn't really with Clegg on taxes, on tuition, on..., though they did do along for the ride because to begin with power is intoxicating, because they did manage to do some good, and because they thought compromise politics might be the new norm, if only they'd known.

In some ways the Lib Dems are the hardest party to lead, we go from the socialists who don't for a number of reasons like Labour and/or the unions, the sandal wearing greens, some of the woke, to centrists, through to full on free market thinkers who consider for societal safeguards you need more regulation and state activity than the Tories go for. All the parties are broad churches but the Lib Dems almost go the full spectrum, which means they need a charismatic leader to hold the party together and one who happens to be the right fit at the right time in the public zeitgeist when most the public pay very little attention to news generally and certainly not politics meaning nuance is dead in the water, a coherent plan easily loses to Get Brexit Done or Build Back Better.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Puja » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:49 pm

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Bolded bit is a contender for understatement of the century.

You make a fair point that it wasn't just tuition fees that got them to power - I think you're right that it's fairer to say that breaking it lost them power, rather than the promise gained them power. I'd still say Clegg is a muppet who got utterly mugged off in the negotiations by only having one policy achievement in exchange for supporting austerity and losing any chance of future Lib Dem power. What they lost was not worth raising the basic rate of tax.

Puja



Maybe they got done over, well they did get somewhat done over, but they were the minority party in government and by a substantial margin. They shouldn't have had their views win out on most if any issues.


Disagree. They were the kingmakers in a hung parliament and, if the Conservatives wanted to be in power, the Lib Dems were their only route outside of a short-lived minority government and second election. They were in a strong position to get some concessions and they used that position to get the weakest possible option to change the electoral system (which was put in the worst possible time and was completely stitched up), a reform of the House of Lords (which was reneged on) and
an increase in the no tax threshold (which the Conservatives claimed as their own because no-one was listening to the Lib Dems anymore).

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:13 pm

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Bolded bit is a contender for understatement of the century.

You make a fair point that it wasn't just tuition fees that got them to power - I think you're right that it's fairer to say that breaking it lost them power, rather than the promise gained them power. I'd still say Clegg is a muppet who got utterly mugged off in the negotiations by only having one policy achievement in exchange for supporting austerity and losing any chance of future Lib Dem power. What they lost was not worth raising the basic rate of tax.

Puja



Maybe they got done over, well they did get somewhat done over, but they were the minority party in government and by a substantial margin. They shouldn't have had their views win out on most if any issues.


Disagree. They were the kingmakers in a hung parliament and, if the Conservatives wanted to be in power, the Lib Dems were their only route outside of a short-lived minority government and second election. They were in a strong position to get some concessions and they used that position to get the weakest possible option to change the electoral system (which was put in the worst possible time and was completely stitched up), a reform of the House of Lords (which was reneged on) and
an increase in the no tax threshold (which the Conservatives claimed as their own because no-one was listening to the Lib Dems anymore).

Puja


It's all very well saying they were Kingmakers, but that still left someone as the King if that's the analogy.

They did get some concessions, the big one being the change to income tax, that they got shouted down in any credit for it speaks more to the media being much more supporters of their coalition partners. But also they took a view somebody needed to step up and be responsible in creating a stable governmental platform, and they did that, and they did it as it turns out at significant costs to themselves. Though as noted before they were rather thinking this was going to just be the start of compromise politics, not an end to it. Had they known it would've been one and done they likely would have behaved differently, but they took seriously they needed to be able to show Labour too they could compromise, that they could compromise with the Tories again, and still more seriously the county was in a very difficult position. And it might have helped them had Labour turned up being willing to negotiate, but Labour insisted from the outset that Brown would remain and the Lib Dems would be an irrelevance, once Labour weren't willing to seriously discuss any area of policy the Lib Dems might alter that lifted any pressure on the Tories to make further concessions

What they do next is of more interest to me. I'd like them to take on some limited campaigns rather than address an entire portfolio, so things like social care, things like housing, things like prison reform, like gambling and maybe other addiction issues. And that could be in the guise of worker rights, we've just had the high court saying social care workers having to sleep on sight, perhaps being woken 2-4 times a night to work can be paid £4 an hour for that cover, we've got people still in jail on IPP sentences with no end sight, often it seems no possible end, we've got people stuck on interest only mortgages being told they can't go onto repayment mortgages because although those would be cheaper than what they're paying they can't show they can afford them, we've got all the refurbs required post Grenfell. All those are issues which someone should be doing more about, that I think wold fall into the wheelhouse of what people might expect in policy terms for the Libs to be looking at, and they're all areas that can resonate with a wider audience.

It took decades to build up to being a minority party in government, it could easily take as long again, though who knows if we get a Change UK that actually establishes itself and/or of the Labour and Tory parties survive as they are or split.

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Which Tyler
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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Which Tyler » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:43 pm

Completed my census today - Nationality = European

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Zhivago » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:41 pm

Which Tyler wrote:Completed my census today - Nationality = European


Does it preclude the possibility of a multi-layered sense of national identity?

Mephistopheles


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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Which Tyler » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:48 pm

Zhivago wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:Completed my census today - Nationality = European


Does it preclude the possibility of a multi-layered sense of national identity?

You can tick whichever of the options you choose; including "other" to write in your own - I chose to do that without specifying any form of British.

And that was with doing it before kick-off today; I now feel even less English

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:09 pm

Which Tyler wrote:Completed my census today - Nationality = European


I didn't think to do that, ah well, there'll be another one along soon

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Sandydragon » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:53 pm

Zhivago wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:Completed my census today - Nationality = European


Does it preclude the possibility of a multi-layered sense of national identity?

You can free text if you want to. Some poor sod at ONS will love you for doing that mind.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:40 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Digby wrote:
Digby wrote:I'm not really sure if this deserves to be in this thread or the Brexit one, either way it's a lot of money being used to get something at best comparable to Galileo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53279783

And it's only a lot of money to buy into an American company that we'd joint own with an Indian communications company, we could still face hurdles with the US dependent on what we want to do with the technology, especially when it comes to any Chinese involvements. It's certainly not the UK alternative we were told we'd have, and it's only a few hundred million to buy in, it's going to take billions more for an idea that might not work out.

Yet another giant fuck up courtesy of Brexit, but with Boris in charge debt is a problem for the future and providing that's not his future he doesn't seem to care

OneWeb as a construct wasn't intended to be used for a navigational system payload, so we're going to have to see if as a concept it can be converted despite it operating at an orbit height around 1/17th of other navigational systems proven to work. I'm sure OneWeb did a terrific job selling the UK government this wouldn't be a problem, but they were failing and looking for any path out of bankruptcy having laid off more than 80% if their workforce and simply keeping enough people in place to keep current satellites (or their capital spend to date) in orbit whilst desperately seeking new investment, but this isn't proven and the UK government has a miserably bad record on technology projects.

I presume we're buying into OneWeb rather than starting our own UK company because of the hope it'll be cheaper to try and piggy back a system that was meant for something else, though Galileo was better and cheaper than either of those options, so again hearty congratulations to team Brexit you useless lying wankers



In new nobody saw coming reports suggest the pissing up the wall of the money spent so far on our alternative to Galileo is to be abandoned.

The only news site obviously reporting the story is the Express, and somehow it doesn't seem right to click on that to see if they've actually got the story. But for now it would seem 'experts' are advising the equipment we spent a shitload acquiring cannot be re-purposed. If they'd agreed to me idea of paying me £5 million to tell this idea wouldn't work they'd have wasted a lot less money. I suspect if the Express do have the story it's the EU's fault

Beyond wasting even more money than Cummings and Johnson like to reserve for handing out to private companies run by their friends and family without proper recourse to the legal tender process we still have the problem of no functioning plan for a GPS system.

From the Express article (further corroboration required):

Galileo blow: £5bn UK rival set to be SCRAPPED with MP branding idea a 'vanity project'
HOPES of a British satellite navigation project to rival the EU's Galileo system at a cost of up to £5billion are on the verge of crashing down to Earth with the UK Space Agency poised to terminate the project.

In 2018, Boris Johnson's predecessor as Prime Minister, Theresa May, allocated £92million in cash to investigate the feasibility of the UK building its own system after being frozen out of Galileo, despite having invested upwards of £1billion and developed much of the technology. However, widespread reports have suggested the UKSA has concluded the concept is not a viable one, with the agency declining to comment on the reports when questioned by Express.co.uk today.

Now some in the industry, and within the civil service, now believe the UK's best bet is to try and regain access to Galileo.

Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, chairman of the defence select committee, agreed, stressing the UK is currently without a back-up to the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS), on which it is completely reliant.

Mr Ellwood, MP for Bournemouth West, told Express.co.uk the push for a UK system had essentially been a "vanity project".

Just a multi million pound punt by Johnson and super predictor Cummings. No problem, it's not their money.




Boris once again steps up bravely to tell the truth bringing power back to parliament


https://news.sky.com/story/oneweb-key-d ... t-12255653

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Digby » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:56 am

I was just saying to someone at lunch the other day it was odd we hadn't heard from Agent Cummings and Goings in a while, that he'd gone from being such a key political figure to be being nothing. And here we are. Boris has lit upon the defence of okay he's corrupt but nobody cares, where by nobody he means nobody in a position to do anything about it.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Sandydragon » Fri May 07, 2021 8:02 am

After last night results, Boris won’t be too worried about the next election.

I’m not sure at the moment how much of the huge swing was due to Brexit, a Labour leadership that isn’t connecting, or a covid bounce. Whether any of that will be a positive for the conservatives at the next election, but this should be setting alarm bells ringing for Labour and see some kind of course change.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Zhivago » Fri May 07, 2021 12:45 pm

Just to remind folks where the bar was set when Corbyn was in charge
https://labourlist.org/2016/02/corbyns- ... ions-test/

Starmer must go

Mephistopheles


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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby fivepointer » Fri May 07, 2021 1:04 pm

Sandydragon wrote:After last night results, Boris won’t be too worried about the next election.

I’m not sure at the moment how much of the huge swing was due to Brexit, a Labour leadership that isn’t connecting, or a covid bounce. Whether any of that will be a positive for the conservatives at the next election, but this should be setting alarm bells ringing for Labour and see some kind of course change.


Brexit is still a live issue and the Govt will get some credit for "getting it done". That may change the more the limitations and weaknesses of the agreement with the EU comes into focus. Right now, its a tick in the plus column.
The vaccine bounce is considerable. That, allied to the opening up of the economy over recent weeks, is a factor in how people are feeling. The mood in the country has changed.
Labour and Starmer arent cutting through. In part that is due to the present situation where Covid is going to dominate and opposition parties arent going to get the exposure that the Govt is getting. That said, they have to do better. Its one thing making Johnson look like an incompetent fool at PMQ's but landing blows that stick, as well as articulating an alternative position requires a bit more.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Sandydragon » Fri May 07, 2021 2:24 pm

Zhivago wrote:Just to remind folks where the bar was set when Corbyn was in charge
https://labourlist.org/2016/02/corbyns- ... ions-test/

Starmer must go

Corbyn lost two general elections, including the worst results for decades. A revert to a Corbyn alike isn’t your answer.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Sandydragon » Fri May 07, 2021 2:28 pm

fivepointer wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:After last night results, Boris won’t be too worried about the next election.

I’m not sure at the moment how much of the huge swing was due to Brexit, a Labour leadership that isn’t connecting, or a covid bounce. Whether any of that will be a positive for the conservatives at the next election, but this should be setting alarm bells ringing for Labour and see some kind of course change.


Brexit is still a live issue and the Govt will get some credit for "getting it done". That may change the more the limitations and weaknesses of the agreement with the EU comes into focus. Right now, its a tick in the plus column.
The vaccine bounce is considerable. That, allied to the opening up of the economy over recent weeks, is a factor in how people are feeling. The mood in the country has changed.
Labour and Starmer arent cutting through. In part that is due to the present situation where Covid is going to dominate and opposition parties arent going to get the exposure that the Govt is getting. That said, they have to do better. Its one thing making Johnson look like an incompetent fool at PMQ's but landing blows that stick, as well as articulating an alternative position requires a bit more.

Starmer needs to reshuffle. Too many shadow ministers who no one knows. I agree this is a difficult time for the opposition and the events are helping the government.

That generosity might change once the inquiry into covid starts to hurt and the impact of Brexit is also properly felt.

Part of me does wonder though if Labour is trying to be too wide a tent. Views of working class people in old industrial towns are different to city dwellers. Mandela on hit the nail on the head with his analysis of the last 11 elections; Labour have won just three. Time for a review? Shifting to the left will just push moderates to the conservatives or into not voting.

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Re: Snap General Election called

Postby Zhivago » Fri May 07, 2021 3:30 pm

Sandydragon wrote:
Zhivago wrote:Just to remind folks where the bar was set when Corbyn was in charge
https://labourlist.org/2016/02/corbyns- ... ions-test/

Starmer must go

Corbyn lost two general elections, including the worst results for decades. A revert to a Corbyn alike isn’t your answer.


Corbyn wasn't the answer either, but at least he had an ideology. The worst politicians are those without any fixed political compass, just like a weather vane they move where the wind blows. Labour needs to move away from London elite (which Corbyn also was). There's more to the country than SW1 and its surrounds.

Mephistopheles



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